Podcast Transcript
Josh Nichols
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. What are you talking about there?
Gary Waters
It’s one of my favourite quotes by Dr Wayne Dyer. Could actually be my absolute favourite quote because it speaks completely into the work that I do which in essence is saying perspective is reality. Right and most people don’t know that but as you kind of go deeper into the work what you really discover is that the results that we get are a byproduct at the deepest level of the perspective that we are and it can sound a bit strange to say we are a perspective but we really are if we kind of investigate and reverse engineer back so it’s speaking into this difference between the content of life and the context so kind of the content of life is how it is but what determines its meaning is how we view it the context the reason I love it and we’re going pretty deep straight out of the gates here is that why that was so powerful for me was that I learned well if I can learn to shift perspective then my outer world changes so that’s why the quote is so powerful because it’s like when you or if you change the way you look at things the way things look change so it’s it helps you kind of narrow straight in on what to focus on if you want to make a true transformation.
Josh Nichols
So you said your outer world changes. This is obviously this is a golf podcast. You’re a golfer. You talk about golf a lot. So if we’re playing a round of golf and two people are, let’s say two people are playing around golf and one has one perspective, the other has another perspective, they’re both experiencing the same thing, but they, they have they perceive it as different experiences. I’m assuming that’s what you’re getting at. But when you say outer world changes, it’s still a golf course for both people. It’s still golf shots. It’s still a golf ball. What do you mean outer world changes in that case?
Gary Waters
Yeah so I like to delineate this this it’s not a difference but it’s most people think their outer world so what happens in external reality determines how they feel inside on their inner world right so yeah when I haven’t kind of delineated a framework there that can be a bit confusing so I’m happy that you asked so yeah it’s to really understand that our reality is completely our own we think that there’s one world out there but really if we’ve all got different programming that programming creates a different lens for each of us so there’s actually eight billion worlds if we kind of say there’s eight billion people in the world roughly right so what that’s speaking to is that you have your own reality so what we’re kind of getting into is to see what is your subjective reality that you’re the creator of so that’s why yes the the the form of life might stay the same but how you view it’s going to determine how you think feel and enact about it so it’s it’s that difference between adversity or is that something that’s growth centric right for some it’s a disaster some it’s like it’s an evolution just depends how you want to look at it.
Josh Nichols
Hmm. Yeah, for some it’s a disaster for some it’s an evolution. Okay, so then you know for the skeptics and cynics that are listening, I know there’s some, the ones that say, this sounds out there, this sounds like, what are you talking about? There’s eight billion different worlds and change your inner experience and your perception is reality. For those, let’s make it as practical as possible. So we’re on the golf course, you and I are playing and you’re really, really good at this, and let’s say that I’m really, really bad at this, just for argument’s sake, how would you and I probably experience that round of.
Gary Waters
As in, get at the psychology or get at golf?
Josh Nichols
Okay, let’s say good at the psychology. Whether or not I’m a better golfer or you’re a better golfer, maybe that’s beside the point. But yeah, psychology of it.
Gary Waters
Yeah, amazing. Yeah, so, you know, we could be both playing golf to whatever standard that we are. But you know, why is it that some people enjoy their round regardless of what result they get and others they just beat themselves up and you know, it’s practically a trauma for them. I can remember back in my junior golf days where I was doing all that I could to be perfect at the game. Good luck with that. But I rarely left the course happy even if I shot a good score or won a tournament there was always more left like I left some shots out there right so it’s this continuous beration of self that is this inner critic this inner voice so that’s kind of how I would explain that did that kind of answer it for you?
Josh Nichols
Yeah, yeah, so the idea is basically it comes down to enjoyment. You’re going to enjoy it probably more than me. So is enjoyment the highest end, the highest goal? Is that how you see it?
Gary Waters
Yeah, I’d say peace is probably my delineation of success, right? In regardless of what I’m doing and it’s this ability to remain at peace regardless of circumstance. Because what essentially we’re always looking for, assert, is that this sense of peace, this sense of freedom, this sense of ease, you know, primarily we’re hardwired to avoid suffering and try to feel good, right? Is to, you know, get away from the suffering. So yeah, I would say, you know, success is peace, but that’s where we enter this state, which, you know, a lot of people call flow. I call it flow freedom and flow where we’re playing fully at peace fully at ease and the byproduct of that is where we just play amazing golf because we love it right we we get to play golf we’re not in this I have to play golf I should be playing a certain way I must you know it’s it’s a totally different energy and probably the greatest question I’d ever ask any golfer if they’re honest is what energy are you moving from when you play golf it freedom or is it fear and if it’s fear there’s a lot of evolution both both personally and in the sport for them that is available.
Josh Nichols
Right, yeah, there’s a lot of room for growth if they’re acting from fear. So is peace at odds with like competitiveness or drive or, you know, hard work, grinding, those kind of things? Do you see that as a different, are those at odds?
Gary Waters
I mean, I’d say that those probably are in the realm of what I would say force. Right? What I’m speaking about is power and it’s quite funny because I think at the end of our last podcast you asked me what book would I recommend and we were talking about the power of now that you’re reading that so I’ll catch up with you how you found that but one of the books that I shared I never really share I don’t think I have since because it’s quite a deep read and it’s but it’s a profound book it delineates power versus force and so what you’re sharing here is kind of, well as I hear it, is more in the force. This very traditional personal development style way of getting results, right? Grit, determination, right? It’s insert the German kind of workout voice behind it, like you can do it, right? But for me, what I’m about is, is literally to still have goals to still have something that you’re committed to and there is a form of discipline involved in order to move towards that goal. Whenever I’m working with anyone, whether they’re a golfer or any kind of athlete, I’m looking at the why. Like why are you chasing what you’re chasing? Why are you doing what you’re doing? And this is where we get into true power because what they discover is the I’m helping them let’s say get to the results that they don’t know they want.
Josh Nichols
Mmm. Right. You’re changing their why, right?
Gary Waters
Yes, because most of people’s why is to overcome some form of let’s say inadequacy, some form of lack, some form of scarcity, some form of fear. And when people really get to like, what’s the end product of any goal or result that people are chasing? They think it’s the thing, right, but really underneath it’s oftentimes a feeling, right? So it’s like, if you keep asking, then what with the goal you’re getting fundamentally that experience the less it’s a feeling so you’re chasing feelings right which is kind of cool because that’s why we can then go to okay if like freedom peace a sense of ease power I’d even bucket love in there for the golf podcast right then you know what I love showing people is that that’s actually already there it’s already there with everybody that’s listening I just love to show people the why is their access point so that we can then dissolve that because it’s like a dissolution process to the work that I do.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, so you’re dissolving a, we’ll call it a faulty why? I mean, is that how you, I assume when someone comes to you, they’re coming to you to say, I’m struggling in some way, help me not struggle and help me perform better or something, or help me feel better. So do you, when you say you’re dissolving their why, or maybe that’s what you’re saying. Are you, you’re probably not labeling it as bad or wrong, but what are you labeling a, maybe an unhelpful why? How do you label that?
Gary Waters
Yeah so great question! I love these conversations with you mate because you really, really do get it! So yeah none of it’s wrong right and that’s why I love there’s nothing wrong with anyone but often times persona that we’ve built over time that I’d say we misidentify as right that has a perspective of life which takes us back to the start which is cool because it’s out of that perspective that arises we could say the thoughts the feelings they have and the actions they take the results they get so that why is bubbling out of their perspective and that’s why it’s not wrong is because there’s no judgment because this perspective is subconscious right that’s the subconscious programming that silently kind of is shaping their life in every arena of life but especially on the golf course too right so the why is coming out of the perspective so when someone comes to me i’m i’m looking at who who they are for themselves that is generating a why that’s often in that kind of lack or scarcity that inadequacy did that make sense.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you’re trying to shift them to, you’re basically helping them dig up a more fulfilling why or a better driven why or is that kind of the journey?
Gary Waters
Yeah so it’s it’s actually as we start to dissolve a lot of these what I call virus programs that make up our personality when they’re gone the why just naturally changes right this is where we don’t play with pressure anymore because like the the need to get to this this tournament result or this certain amount of wins or status it just completely dissolves and that’s where we get to play from to be honest it’s a really beautiful place of contribution right it’s where I get to be an inspiration for others and it becomes less egocentric it becomes more about like just enjoying the sport how can I inspire others to perhaps follow me in whatever they’re looking to do in the sport.
Josh Nichols
So when we see a really dissatisfied golfer, maybe it’s a pro golfer who seems like they’re struggling or lost or they’ve lost enjoyment of the game or maybe it’s a, you know, kind of a regular amateur golfer who’s been in a slump for a really long time. You know, they’re in a, maybe they’re in like the deepest, darkest place they’ve ever been in their golf game. How do they climb out of that? Can, is it snap of the fingers? I, you know, I just need to see things differently or is it, is it a long, difficult, arduous process?
Gary Waters
Yeah do you want the really unsatisfactory answer? It depends! It depends and but I’m not going to leave it there so the first the first thing I’d say is like I get it you know it’s okay and because oftentimes when we’re in this state of fear or if we’re hurting then what we truly want is somebody just to get our reality so I would really meet them where they’re at I’d honor them like for how they’re feeling we don’t want to you know fix feelings we actually want to integrate them into going on for us but to be able to use that as like an entry point to be able to see kind of why why is that like why is there so much frustration what’s really going on for you on a deeper level you know because whether we’re doing a like a business as an entrepreneur or a golfer or you know whatever sport we’re playing it’s a persona that’s playing it that’s why I love doing the work that I do and why it kind of transitions across all different sports. Golf is just one of my favorites. Although you wouldn’t know that because I only hit balls for the first time yesterday and I’m feeling the effects Josh today. I’m like, Oh, hello. But, uh, it’s just been a crazy year, but yes, I’m enjoying being back, but it’s, um, yeah, it’s, there’s, there’s a persona driving the show and you know how we do something is how we do everything is how I normally view it so there’ll be something going on for them on a personal level that is impacting their performance you know it can be something totally unrelated often formed in childhood that’s you know this deeper subconscious programming that’s so oblivious to them that they don’t even see it running the show or it just might be something that’s going on in their life right now and it’s like how can they let go really let that be so yeah that’s what I’d say it’s it’s gonna be different for everyone.
Josh Nichols
Yeah. And right, because everyone has a you, you mentioned the word context, everyone has a different place they are in their lives. Everyone has a different set of circumstances that led them, right? The kind of storybook of their lives are different. So could, could you, and this actually, this reinforces a point that I’ve been making on this podcast a lot lately is, know, golf psychology, golf mental game is really just human psychology, but applied to golf and human psychology applied to parenting, human psychology applied to business and work and relationships. So it’s, it’s the person and what can we apply that person being a healthier, happier person to golf. So the reason why I’m rambling about that is do you think it’s possible for someone to just go to quote unquote therapy and never talk to the person about golf and it will help their golf game.
Gary Waters
I’d say yeah it would! Obviously if you can marry the two that’s gonna be more powerful but you know if you can find what’s you know your limits…. My brand is called Live Limitless and you know the reason for that most people think it’s like living a limitless life of like wealth like cars clothes like hot relationships you know everything that the world would deem success right and the the brand is all about actually living limitless meaning the the inner limits are dissolved right? So that’s the true man, the by-product. Once those are dissolved, then the outer world, I was saying before, the goals that we then move towards it’s effortless it’s in flow and those rise much quicker so yeah I would say for sure that it’s definitely it’s going to help because it’s the the way of being in the world that’s then going to transition then onto the golf course but you know some of it can be super specific with golf meaning like where it’s a big word but where they’ve incurred trauma on the golf course you know really is in how the meaning that we give it it can be quite tricky to unwind especially if you’ve not got like a mirror that can really listen.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, I was gonna say, is this possible to be done by yourself, do you think?
Gary Waters
Yeah to a certain degree and you know for me when I got into this work which I didn’t know existed until I broke myself majestically. I didn’t have any money, you know, I don’t come from money and I learned so much for free, you know, watching YouTube, getting some books relatively cheaply. So there is a lot that you can do and there’s amazing courses and content, you know, now 10, 12 years later, it’s just there’s an abundance. But you know, where my life, I’d say went to the next level is when I got a mentor, because they were able to cut straight through and show how the theory just applied to my own life so, it can is a great place to start but if you want to go quantum leaping rather than this linear progression you know gradually moving quite slowly I’d say get somebody that can really listen that speaks in a way that you understand that’s really important you know just because they’re the most advanced teacher in the world doesn’t mean that they’re the right one for you you might want to start with somebody that’s speaking to you in a slightly different way so there’s plenty of awesome coaches out there so yeah it would that’s what I’d say on that.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, it doesn’t. It’s really, I like what you said, kind of a mirror reflecting back because when you’re just going it alone, you. Yeah, you don’t, you’re not getting the outside questioning. You can question yourself. You can journal. You can follow prompts and here’s, here’s ways to question and investigate your own tendencies and your own whys, but when you speak to someone and they, like you said, your, or they help you dissolve, they kind of reflect back and say, okay, here’s what you just said, and I’m gonna say it to you in a more straightforward way, and you’re gonna realize how irrational that is. Or, you know, we say something like, yeah, I’m just scared to lose, I’m afraid of failure. And the, instead of just saying that and leaving it there, the person that you’re talking to can help you work through that. And whether that’s kind of traditional therapy or on down to a golf, like a mental coach, that outside person can really help.
Gary Waters
For sure. And, you know, it’s, it’s learning that there’s different levels, right? Not that there’s any that are better or worse. Like I said, it’s going to be a level that really speaks to you, but what I found, I started traditionally in personal development, you know, but what I realized and when my career took a real change was when I realized that personal development is great, it’s a great place to start, but in essence, it’s perfecting this best version of our limited self, right? It’s perfecting an identity. What I realized is, a minute, if we dissolve the identity, which can be quite confronting, resolving you! But what you’re left with is you get back to what I’d say is a deeper part of you that you’re completely oblivious to at this moment that is rather than a personality a quality and that quality when you can get back to that place is love, it’s joy, it’s peace, it’s power, it’s a sense of freedom, abundance, worth it’s all there! So this is like the secret to my work is whenever I meet with anyone, I already know that those qualities are there. I’m just about to hear why they don’t think that to be true. Right? So it, that mirroring is the depending on the level is to really show people what they don’t know. Right? I could give you a little example. I had a golfer the other day, just like this beautiful soul. But hasn’t been able to enter any golf tournaments. One, because just like a crippling fear, to be honest, just, but not just in entering tournaments about, you know, the results he would get. But actually even getting to the course, right? Traveling, he had huge fears. So what we got to is he was living in a world where he wasn’t safe and he wasn’t going to be okay. Right? I talk about a lens and that would be a big part of his world, but it showed up everywhere in his world. So when I showed him actually is that a truth or just something you’ve inherited and believe he just, he just he cried because he really got it that it wasn’t true and now he’s able to fly across the world he’s able to enter tournaments and even on the golf course it’s just like he would get over like or on a great score down the 18th get really tight but what he realized there was a conversation in his mind that said really I’m not safe right now right but he was just seeing it as don’t hit it left don’t hit it in the water and when he could see that voice for what it is, which is not true that he’s not safe in that moment, he could just relax, his shoulders dropped and he just would smooth it straight left out of bounds. I’m kidding. But either way, he didn’t really mind all the intensity had gone, you know? So it was really beautiful. I had the most lovely message from him the other day. So we’ll see where we go. We’re just kind of getting started.
Josh Nichols
That’s an incredible example. You know, that, that the joke you made there at the end of, you know, he’s, he’s, feels free. He feels at peace. Feels like he’s enjoying himself finally. And he’s, feels safe yet. We’re still going to hit, you know, some might call it a terrible golf shot, right? And, know, how can you marry the two? There where on the one hand you’re kind of doing this in order to perform right someone might come to you because they say not only do I want to fly to a tournament and enter a tournament I want to play well in the tournament I want to win the tournament and I want to dissolve my limits so that I can excel and perform well but does that come at odds with acceptance of results and needs and fears of not performing well? Do you track what I’m asking?
Gary Waters
Yeah 100 % it’s great question you know so for me what happens is when somebody has reconciled a lot of their history and understand why they’re why they’re playing and they’re playing from freedom and not fear then the need to get results anymore actually it doesn’t matter to them right they they’re still going out completely committed but the attachment to the outcome is has been what has been let go of right so whether they get the result whether they don’t get the result they’re at peace and that doesn’t leave them any less motivated actually they’re way more motivated because they’re having fun they’re they’re in that deeper part of themselves we could say where the byproduct is vitality right when we’re not in these limits of our subconscious mind we are we are literally thriving boundless energy right and it’s it’s amazing so from that you know we get to consciously create something rather than react to what we don’t want so the need dissolves from it so yeah that’s been my experience is just like we take the pressure off and people just play like they do with their buddies you know or when they’re out on the driving range and it’s just really incredible to see how their performance shifts when there’s no attachment to the outcome.
Josh Nichols
So the idea of we can consciously create rather than be reactive and what comes to mind is kind of prefrontal cortex versus limbic system, amygdala, fight flight response. How, when we’re swinging a golf club, we… don’t necessarily want it to be an overly conscious process. We want it to be reactive and athletic and maybe conscious less, right? Or we want our subconscious to be able to come out, the subconscious that we’ve trained. Yet we’re trying to cultivate this, we don’t want to live in this fight or flight. We want to engage our, have our prefrontal cortex turned on, that kind of thing. So, I don’t know, do you look at it as a popping in and out of subconscious and conscious?
Gary Waters
To certain degree. Yeah, the way I would kind of look at it is when we, you know, the subconscious is great. Things like swinging a golf club, you know, it’s become automatic and it’s why there’s so much like dissonance whenever, you know, we’ve been swinging it a certain way and then you go to your local pro and they’re like, we’ve just got to move your hands up there slightly by like a millimeter and you’re like, what that feels incredibly weird, right? But if you practice it and you groove it in that then becomes subconscious or like walking it’s really helpful like if I had to train myself how to walk each morning that’d be a bit of a slow start right so the mechanics of the subconscious awesome I’m all for it helps me drive right but when it comes to the subconscious limits of our persona we could say or identity that’s where you know it’s amazing to step out of that right so in essence when we can learn to step back from our minds see our mind at play see what it’s generating in that moment then we’re able to turn like with or a good word would be to surrender whatever thoughts coming up and then we’re in just a state of peace where we can trust our subconscious programming look at the ball and it goes where it goes right I’m not saying that that’s easy it sounds quite simple but it’s it’s not easy okay.
Josh Nichols
Right, have to break it down systematically over time. It sounds like there’s, so we could look at it as two layers. There’s the conscious layer of here’s how I want to be, and then there’s the subconscious layer, and here’s how, it’s the thing that we want to take over when we want to perform something that we’ve trained. But the limits, that you’re describing, the fears, I mean maybe fear is kind of the root of all of it. It acts like a gate or something. It acts like a guard that won’t let the mind go to the subconscious. It says, nope, you can’t go here. You have to stay conscious. Have to stay, you know, maybe robotic or you have to you know, now you’re overthinking things and I don’t know, does that kind of metaphor track or do you disagree in some way?
Gary Waters
No, no, I get what you’re saying and it’s just you know I’d say my work I’m going behind both right so when we connect with what I would say is a deeper part of you right this this space behind the thoughts that arise on the surface of your mind that which is conscious and you can observe is a signpost as to what’s stored in the subconscious right so it’s the ability to be able to see what what is conscious and showing up and then really challenging it from that deeper layer just like this really a truth in this moment see when it comes to fear and playing golf most for most people it’s a little bit too late because the the fear is a perspective right fear is actually a perception so and some people might say it’s an illusion because it’s like what’s fear? Well, for some people it’s going to be one thing for somebody else that’s a nothingness, right? So it’s to see that the fear this perceived death threat on our deepest level of biology, right? Is coming out of because we’re viewing it that way, right? So if fear is in there, then we’re already tight, we’re already, you know, gripping it in a way that we wouldn’t when we’re feeling at ease. And that’s just going to knock out your time. So it’s it once you’ve kind of dissolved these deeper codes as I like to say in all of these limitations then there’s the chatter actually starts to fall away and that’s where you’re just present you’re hitting a golf ball that makes sense.
Josh Nichols
Absolutely. Have you ever seen someone quit golf because they developed this deep acceptance of, okay, my performance doesn’t define me anymore. I was playing golf because I was supposed to, because it was something I was good at, because it was something I’ve always done. And now that I can see I’ve detached myself from the results. Now, I actually don’t feel that driven to play anymore. Have you ever seen someone quit golf because of this?
Gary Waters
Actually, yeah. And this is where everybody that might have been listening to this and was thinking, I might get in touch with that Gary Waters, just when I’m not contacting that Gary Waters. Yes. Very rarely, I’d say. But to be honest, I love it! I would love if that was the outcome for someone if they’re gonna then follow their truth you know if somebody from let’s say as a little boy was told he has to play golf and that’s he then took that on to think that if he was good then his dad would love him I’m just making stuff up here but it was never what he was interested in he was always interested maybe in art or maybe in you know I don’t know anything to be honest could be building whatever so golf was never really his truth his his direction that he wanted to go but he was forcing himself so for me if if somebody doesn’t enjoy golf and they suddenly realized why they were playing and it’s it’s you know not the reason why they want to be playing well isn’t that the most beautiful thing to be able to then go okay I’m not gonna waste the rest of life doing something that I don’t like so for me that would be amazing but it doesn’t happen very often yeah.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, isn’t it funny how that would be kind of not the best possible outcome, but that would be an amazing outcome. Because you golf in and of itself while you you maybe someone approached you to say I want to perform better at golf because it’s I’m identified by it right if I need my golf to be better so that I feel better but kind of in a a sneaky way and you’re not being sneaky, but you say, we need to first detach you from golf and you know, that can help you play better, but along the way you might realize, wait, I actually, I’ve been doing this for all the wrong reasons. My why has been different. And that actually tracks with my own life really strongly. When you said, I’m making this up, that sounds like you were describing my own journey with golf in a lot of ways where you know, I had a kind of performative relationship with my parents where they congratulated me and seemed like they loved me more when I performed well. I think it’s a really common thing. I’m seeing it with my own toddler. It’s really easy to clap for the good stuff and kind of be even keeled for the you didn’t get the result. So I developed that with my parents and so I just got on this treadmill of, okay, that’s all I do. That’s what I do. I have to perform better. I have to get better. And before long, I kind of forgot that that was even why I was doing it in the first place. And now it’s just like, I just do this. The golf is just who I am. So I can’t let this go. If I let this go, then I letting myself go. So eventually I did do that. Not that I quit playing golf. I love golf more now than I did then, but that’s because my reason for playing the game is so much healthier. It’s not driven by performance to prove my worth to somebody, right? And I still have to catch myself, right? Cause it’s an old habit ingrained in me. But yeah, you’re describing myself a lot. So I’m sure a lot of people experience that that you talk to.
Gary Waters
Yeah, it’s, you know, that came to mind just because it’s so common. And I love that you shared that because your listeners will really be able to resonate with that and it’s amazing you know how and I can resonate with that too you know I think in the first podcast you know I can’t remember if I shared but I actually did walk away from the game and it was because I took up the game quite late my dad never put pressure on me to play he he was a golf pro for 30 years kind of like teaching pro I think when me and my sister cruised into this world his plans to go play on tour kind of took a bit of a hit but yeah for me it was like where I took it up late I put so much pressure on myself because my dad was a pro and I I got so in my head that I could hardly swing it anymore you know I was like a like a mini robot as I look back and you know, it’s funny because my dad now says, you know, if you’d had the mindset that you’ve got now with your ability to play, you would have been a bit of a force. And it’s just, it’s so funny now that I’m trafficking in the world of like the mental side of the game, because that was always my downside. But everybody can kind of relate with what we’re sharing here, because, you know, to let people know where this begins, it’s actually like when we’re like one or that’s why there’s no shame, there’s no guilt, there’s no judgment for ourselves or at least you know that’s what I try and overlay is because you know from zero to like one or two we can do whatever we want and we are loved unconditionally right now.
Josh Nichols
Hopefully.
Gary Waters
Hopefully, yeah, sadly not in some some places right? But what happens generally is that around that age one or two we start to get language and that’s where parents start to think that we can understand them. So it’s no judgment on parents either right but we think the parent thinks that the child now knows the difference between good or bad and suddenly you could have done everything you know that you wanted and there’s no stop bad don’t do that suddenly you get that and in that moment as a little toddler you suddenly learn that just being you isn’t enough that you’ve got to change who you are in order for the people that are basically keeping you safe i’ve got to be how i think you want me to be to guarantee this unconditional love that i’ve got so far this acceptance, this being wanted, this sense of belonging and safety. So that is the journey of suffering and how it begins and that’s why a lot of my work is in language because it’s code and hopefully that helps people make a bit more sense of what I was saying earlier. So once we’re on that track of trying like you said to get better I was just trying to get better to get better to get better what we are reinforcing is actually that we’re not right? We’re enforcing the negative because if we’re trying to get away from something we’re reinforcing our view of ourselves like I am inadequate we could say. Does that make sense?
Josh Nichols
Absolutely. That’s a really powerful and, now you were hitting at my own personal golf journey. Now you’re hitting at my parental journey to, to be more unconditional loving to my son. It’s so, so difficult. And I mean, it’s impossible to do it perfectly, of course. Right. But as adults, right. When we, when we’ve been in this tangled web for you in my case, 34 years and we maybe don’t know any other way. I mean, that shows us how difficult, truly difficult it is to just, you can’t just snap your fingers and suddenly you rewrite this 34 years of programming or for some 60 years of programming where, you know, your parents, teachers, you know, government or whatever, like we’re told you need to be different, you need to be different, you need to be different. So is the goal to in some ways just be yourself? Like is that kind of an ultimate goal, right? Where I asked earlier is enjoyment the ultimate goal? You know, is, I don’t know, we’re getting Eckhart Tolle a little bit where it’s maybe self-actualization is kind of our goal.
Gary Waters
Yeah wonderfully said and I’d say so right enjoyment is like a byproduct discovering what we could say our authentic self that which is beneath all of the conditioning all of the programming that essentially is in language right these codes that run us unconsciously so that’s why there’s so much grace so much forgiveness and you know we don’t know what we don’t know if we knew different we would do different right so that’s a beautiful way of starting to reconcile our history especially because so many people look back and they themselves for what they did wrong so so yeah the the process for me if we truly want to be powerful in whatever we do it is to get to that true self and that’s where the conversation can get a for some a little bit woo-woo that’s why I call it like you know this deeper part of you because language is so powerful it could switch somebody off from even going there if it’s not what they’ve learned or what they’ve known or they’ve been taught like don’t go looking at that whatever right so so yeah the the most powerful thing to z is that when you start to shine the spotlight of awareness on to this identity that we think we are right this voice in the head and we look at the next layer of light on body right when we start to really unravel that it’s super cool because you start to see all of the things that you’ve made up about yourself so so yeah.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, yeah, the things that you’ve kind of tacked on and the layers that you’ve added and all of that. So do you… When someone says something like, play like a kid or something, right? You’re being too controlling. Just go out there and play like a kid. Just free up. Is there issues with kind of trying to skip some steps and jump to the end result and, okay, yeah, I’m just gonna play like a kid. I haven’t addressed any of these issues in myself. I still identify with the game, but I’m gonna try today to chill out, relax. And just play like a kid. Can that cause problems or is that actually a helpful way to do it?
Gary Waters
Wouldn’t say it causes problems it just doesn’t work and I’m really impressed by what works right because it’s kind of a bit like affirmations a little bit you know in that we’re we’re speaking something new into you know how what we’re gonna do or who we’re gonna be but you haven’t tidied up what’s underneath that that’s been there as you said for the 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years that says no you’re not right? So you can get like a temporary result but you’re always going to default to that deeper programming. Right? So for me the the true transformation is in this dissolution of who you’ve been being. Right? And from there the the kid-like curiosity and playfulness and joy arises naturally. Right? So in the trying to be a kid and trying to be different what we’re saying still is there’s something wrong with me so we’re reinforcing that there’s something wrong so it actually not to it makes it worse but it it’s just not going to work long term and I’m you know I’m all about permanent transformation and not temporary like relief.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, that you know, there’s a I I struggle also with you know, the the delineation or the balance between self-acceptance and change and you know, I I I don’t like the way that I’m being I don’t like the way that I feel so I want to change but also there’s nothing wrong with the way I feel how can how can we deal with that? And I know we’re, we might be a million miles away from golf at this point and that’s okay, like how do you, as a golfer, I don’t like the way that I act on the golf course. I don’t like how I feel in relation to golf, but also there’s nothing wrong with me and there’s nothing wrong with the feelings that I have. How can those two marry up?
Gary Waters
Yeah, so what I’d say is that there’s definitely nothing wrong with that person, right? We want to want to stay out of the judgment, right? But there is a huge opportunity! Because whatever’s coming up for that person is showing them where they’re not free within themselves right so we want to first make space and accept that for right now this is how I’m being how I’m acting it’s okay but with a commitment to go okay but why am I like that what’s really going on for me right now you know one of my favorite questions for myself is you know what would I have to believe to be true about myself right now in order to be reacting in the way that I am right and by no means you know I’ve been doing this work for like a decade and there’s definitely times where I get triggered, you know, and it’s like, and then I go and do the work that I explained to everybody else, you know, I’ve got an ego or, you know, we could call that an identity, everybody’s, you know, got an ego or an identity, same, same thing. And it’s just like, sometimes that old programming can pop up and I’ll forget something and or something will be really confronting. And that’s where, you know, the rubber really hits the road. So first is accept there’s nothing wrong. It’s okay. You know, but then with this level of commitment, okay, but what’s, what’s really going on for me right now? And, you know, a change is possible, not because there’s something wrong, but as an evolutionary step for me to live a more powerful, meaningful, enjoyable life.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, I heard one time someone said, you know, the only way to change, or it’s really hard to change when you’re acting from emotion and you’re driven by ego or identity, like you’re saying, and you’re driven by judgment and I need to be different. It’s really hard to change because you… You can’t see clearly, you’re not even seeing clearly what’s going on. When you have acceptance, you’re seeing yourself clearly. You’re kind of like wiping away all the added crap. You’re sweeping off the dust so that you can actually see, okay, this is how I am. Acceptance, a definition I’ve heard is acceptance is seeing things how they are, not how you wish they were. So I’m looking at myself as I am. And now I can change. Like now I can mold myself differently. I have this power over myself to be able to improve my relationship with golf, improve how I respond to pressure or whether or not I encounter pressure in the first place. Yeah, I heard that about self- kind of self-acceptance and that was helpful to me.
Gary Waters
Yeah as long as you know we’re not in acceptance we’re in suffering because fundamentally the energy we’re in is resistance and the way it shows up, know, based on the mechanisms of the mind and how it traffics in time it’s like we generally have resistance to our history. It shouldn’t have been that way. That was wrong in the present we’ve got resistance right right now. It should be different than it is and in the future it’s like we’re trying to avoid a bad future that hasn’t happened yet, right? So there’s kind of like resistance to all levels of time, right? So in order to really step into peace and this element of freedom and flow is to really start to see where can I bring in acceptance in all those arenas right so in the present right now it is how it is can I accept that can I be okay with that I’m not saying it’s ideal I’m not saying it’s like optimal but it is how it is right so if we can go I can accept it is how it is now we’ve got a chance to shift gears into like okay so what do I want to do about that? Right? But the same is like with our history, if we’re in resistance to our history, like that shouldn’t have happened. I shouldn’t have hit that shot on like the 13th hole, whatever. Okay. That’s, that’s great, but it’s not helping. Right? Because what happened in that history has happened. It couldn’t be any different because that’s what happened. Right? So if we can go, okay, I can accept that happens because it happened. It’s like, well, can I learn? How can I grow from that? Right? And then the future is when we really get…. Future doesn’t exist we’re just we’re just scared of our own imagination then that allows us to kind of collapse time and come back into the present moment where we have the ability to impact the moment if we’re.
Josh Nichols
Mmm. Yeah, you said yeah, that was good. You said resistance is the alarm bell for awakening you can choose to use this alarm as a tool for awakening into peace freedom and living a limitless life so, what do you mean resistance is the alarm bell?
Gary Waters
Yeah, it’s a… I’m aware I swore a bit on your podcast last time and you bleeped me out so I’m going to try not to do that today and I’m practicing not swearing I don’t actually swear much in my day today by the way it’s only when I’m coaching or doing podcasts that it seems to move through me very passionately right so yeah so resistance is the alarm bell for awakening what I mean by that is generally wherever we feel resist like I don’t want this to be the way that it is it shouldn’t be that way you know we are in resistance to reality as it is now most people see that as a negative thing right but when you can shift perspective to see that resistance is showing you where you can’t stay at peace or where you’re not free then actually any resistance that you experience is an opportunity into more peace and freedom right so it’s actually the gift that is wrapped in many layers of sticky poop right I’m using poop where I normally would swear you can use your own imagination peoples right but it’s it is so it’s like we don’t want it it’s sticky it’s a horrible mess but underneath it is like a gift if you can be willing to step into it right so for me all resistance is the alarm bell for awakening it’s like wherever i feel triggered ding ding wakey wakey because generally if i’ve got resistance i’ve been subconscious i’ve been not paying attention i’ve been running on autopilot right otherwise i just observe the moment and i’m fully at peace with it so yeah it’s a it’s a great tool for evolution and awakening if if you’re into that.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, I love the idea of, because I know I’m not perfect, I will encounter fear and pressure. And the things that I’m trying to improve away from. I know I’m going to encounter those things. So when I encounter those, I’m not going to be swept up by them. It’s not going to be stimulus then response. There will be the stimulus. And then I’ll inject some conscious appraisal of the situation and and then proceed how I want to proceed. And and the only way I was able to do that is because I noticed the resistance in the first place I I think that’s a really good framework that’s a I mean I think that’s a really prac as as woo-woo and out there is all this can be that’s a really practical thing is the next time you go play you just pay attention to all these things that you kind of don’t like or that are uncomfortable or are the ways that you, that golf, to use your word, kind of, is suffering, right? And golf can feel like suffering a lot of the time. But the, know, pay attention, notice those things, and then use them as a helpful trigger, not a hurtful trigger. I think that’s really powerful.
Gary Waters
Yeah, I love that. I might even steal that mate. It’s helpful and not a hurtful trigger. Is that right? Okay.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, yeah, it’s not a, you can use it as a helpful trigger.
Gary Waters
Yeah, I love that. I’m going to nick it, right?
Josh Nichols
Okay, that’s fine. Do it. We’re all trying to help each other out here. I love that.
Gary Waters
I’ll quote you for sure I love that though and I love how you summarized it yeah and as we kind of like shift into you know where I started with the work that I do is this dissolution process right where we’re we’re deleting these codes that cause the resistance when you’re starting to view that process that way that’s why it’s so exciting when something triggers me right in the moment I allow my humanity and it’s like that’s not I that’s not optimal but if I’m feeling like I can’t be with this moment then that’s something that I get to work on and if I can dissolve that let that go surrender it then what’s really beautiful I get more access to even greater peace right even more power more love more freedom so like life then becomes like this process of like polishing the gems that we are I stole that from I’m just stealing stuff all over the place Nick that off my my mentor Peter Crone yeah I can’t can’t claim credit but yeah it life takes on a totally new it just becomes a new experience right.
Josh Nichols
That’s beautiful. I like that.
Gary Waters
Otherwise we become a victim to life and you know anyone that works with me I explain you’re either a victim or you’re not and there’s no power in a victim stance right because life is happening to you so yeah that’s why I love that shift in perspective.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, that’s that’s beautiful and powerful. Okay, so I wish we could go on forever, but we both have lives that we need to live that aren’t in podcast land. So you mentioned your own kind of one on one work with with clients and golfers. Do you do you have anywhere you would send a listener to, you know, go check this out? I’ve just launched this or whatever. Anything like that?
Gary Waters
Yeah the the two places I generally focus on mainly is like my website Garywaters.co.uk or Instagram is where I share certain things or like a space I like to hold myself accountable as well like with working out or playing golf or just sharing insights that I’ve learned a means of giving back and you know that handle there is I am Gary Waters and Gary Waters was gone so if you’re Gary Waters out there please get a touch I quite like that that’d be way better.
Josh Nichols
Mm-hmm. Yeah, because I am Gary Waters’ ego and identity. We gotta drop that.
Gary Waters
Yeah. Exactly! Which is quite funny! You know, it’s one of my buddies, he’s got a similar handle and we met because we’re in a similar line of work, you know, it’s funny because it goes against kind of the work that we do, but you know, in order often times to really meet people where they’re at, we’ve got to speak that kind of language. So yeah, it does, you know, if I walk into a coffee shop and say, hey, I’m an infinite being of love, joy, and freedom, they’re going to be like, okay, what do you want for coffee? No, but I’m so tempted to do it, mate. I might actually, I’ll let you know how I get on. Yeah, probably not. Okay, I’ll let you know how it goes.
Josh Nichols
That doesn’t fit on a coffee cup with my Sharpie. Yeah. You should try that. That’s great. That’s great. Okay. We got a, we got garywaters.co.uk and I am garywaters on Instagram. Awesome. Gary, this is of course been a pleasure. And if, anyone wants, you know, double the Gary, uh, you can go to our previous episode. We recorded one back in September of 2024. So that one was equally awesome. And these might’ve been probably very similar, but we, um, you know, we’ve both changed in the last eight months or so and I think bringing some new perspective to some of the same old topics is always good.
Gary Waters
Yeah for sure and you know I I love the way you shared that right we’re we’re both evolved since then you know we’re with this ever evolving perspective and you know that first session was you know it we covered a lot of ground that’s what I’d say and in this one I may even have loved even more mate you know to acknowledge you the questions that you ask it it just shows how much you know and I just I feel really excited for anyone that is blessed to work with you you know you’re an incredible coach incredible golfer so yeah just thank you for the work you do.
Josh Nichols
Thank you so much, Gary. Well, this has been a pleasure and yeah, maybe we’ll do a round three sometime.
