Podcast Transcript
Josh Nichols
Enjoying golf can help us feel less pain, but pain can make golf feel less enjoyable. So it’s a little bit of a chicken and egg. How do we navigate that? Where do we start? Or is it tangential to that completely?
Carly Hunt
That’s a great question. Very insightful. And yes, I would agree that for those listeners who might be recovering from an injury or have ongoing pain, golf could be a pain management strategy when done right, right? Like if you are walking the golf course, connecting with people you love, kind of challenging yourself to stay active, even though you might be experiencing some pain, keeping up a healthy diet, all these sorts of things that we can unpack, I think golf can be pain relieving for sure.
While at the same time athletes can be vulnerable to injury, right? And so, yeah, so it can be sort of a, it’s hard to say which, you know, I guess it is sort of a chicken and the egg question, but I definitely think those golfers on the call who are struggling with pain, one thing I talk a lot about in the book is thanks to…
Decades of pain neuroscience research, all that science that’s in the book. We do have more control over our pain than maybe was once thought, and we can unpack that more. But I think that’s really empowering for athletes and golfers to know.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, and what I was gathering from the book is there’s, there’s of course, you know, proper tools and, you know, physical things, diet things that you can do to lower pain or manage pain, but a huge part of the book, and maybe it’s the, it’s the whole, the whole idea of the book based on the cover with a brain on the front is it’s, it’s mostly about the psychology of pain.
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Josh Nichols
And how psychology affects pain, can help you lower pain. When you say, one of the phrases that stuck out from your materials is the psychological pitfalls of injury. What do you, unpack that phrase, what does that mean?
Carly Hunt
Yes, so as you said Josh, psychology is so important with pain and our health. An example of a really common psychological pitfall of injury and of pain is essentially our thoughts, right? And you think about this a lot. And a phrase that’s often put to this is called pain catastrophizing, which I don’t really love that term, but it basically means pain-related worry, right? It’s like,
Let’s say you’re a competitive golfer and you start to develop some low back pain, right? Low back pain is really common. And you think, gosh, have I really damaged my body? Maybe I won’t be able to play. I’m going to sit out the whole season. Maybe I’ll lose my job. The train goes straight to the worst place, right? And that’s natural on the one hand, but a key mental skill that’s worth knowing is being able to challenge those fear-based thoughts and help your body feel safer.
As I talk about in the book, of any kind, acute pain, is your body’s alarm system, telling you that there’s something wrong and you should address it. And chronic pain is essentially that alarm system getting kicked into high gear. It’s a faulty alarm system that’s just kind of going off in the absence of any real tissue damage, assuming you’ve been checked out by a doctor. So being able to create a safer narrative around pain.
So let’s say during a rehab process, if the thoughts just start to spiral, I’ll never get back to where I was, all this sort of thing to really say, okay, let me just notice those thoughts, come back to the present moment, try to challenge and question those thoughts and write a safer, healthier narrative that will help me feel more empowered, more in control. So that’s an example of a psychological pitfall and a strategy that anyone could start using right away to try and turn down the volume on that pain alarm and sort of.
Stay committed to the rehab process.
Josh Nichols
And how much, and maybe this is, an ignorant question of me, but how much is chronic pain or how much of chronic pain is just kind of in our head and maybe pain is maybe the whole thing is all pain is in our head, quote unquote, but is there, is there like a, I’m creating this pain and I don’t, it doesn’t need to be there because it’s, it’s purely mental. Is that a thing?
Carly Hunt
That’s such a terrific theme to raise. And I definitely want to say that the brain is different than the mind.
And so although the brain produces pain, and that’s something listeners might not know, is in fact, the brain is always what ultimately produces a pain experience, and we can unpack that more, but that’s not you, right? So unfortunately, a lot of people that suffer from chronic pain or just kind of struggling to get a handle on, say, post-injury pain,
It’s kind of a stigmatizing message to say, know, hey, this is all in your head. Like it doesn’t have substance, right? And that’s actually really invalidating and really problematic. And that exists, you know, in a lot of places, unfortunately. So I definitely want to drive home the point that if you have pain, your pain is real. Like if you feel it is real, right. And the brain is involved in producing pain.
Josh Nichols
Right.
Josh Nichols
You
Carly Hunt
But retraining the brain, you your brain is an organ in your body, just like your liver. And it has started to, in the case of chronic pain, make pain totally outside of your conscious awareness, right? Like so much goes on in the brain that we’re not in control of. And the brain has essentially learned pain, but it’s not your fault. You didn’t try to make that happen, right? Yet there are things within your conscious control that you can do to lower the volume of the pain you’re feeling, if that makes sense.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, so it’s like a, this isn’t illegitimate. It’s, what you’re experiencing, what you’re perceiving is valid and it’s not made up, right? Like, in the realm of pain, it probably is accurate to say perception is reality, right? If you feel like you’re in pain, you’re in pain. If you are experiencing the thoughts of pain,
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Then that’s paint, right? There’s no reason to separate the two. So if it’s there, that’s valid. Then, is it important, the next step, to determine, okay, this is something physical that needs to be addressed in a surgical way or a rehab way, or this is,
Mental and psychological that needs to be addressed in these softer, quote unquote, softer ways. Like is that a fork in the road that people have to get to?
Carly Hunt
Yes, that is something that’s a couple of things to say about that. So the first one is every case of chronic pain is unique and it needs its own. I like to use an analogy of like a recipe. So, and it can take time to sort of figure out what the best recipe is for your recovery process. And yeah, there’s a lot of diversity in terms of pain conditions that someone might be dealing with. So it’s always a good idea to have a new pain condition checked out.
By a qualified physician, right? And I always think it’s a good idea to get multiple opinions potentially to kind of get a handle on, yeah, like are there biological contributors to my pain problem? Like, do I have an autoimmune condition, for example? So pain is biopsychosocial, meaning it’s always, you know, there are biological contributors, psychological contributors, so like our thoughts, mindset, emotions, and social contributors. So do we have social support or?
Are you in an unhealthy relationship that could be sort threatening your nervous system, so to speak. So yes, it is a challenge to sort of sort through what is the nature of my pain and what is my best recipe. And that can be a frustrating process. So I think persistence is really important, consulting with medical providers, but also looking at what is the, what.
What can I learn from pain psychology, right? And what can I learn about my social functioning to really address the problem holistically?
Josh Nichols
Yeah, and that’s empowering because it doesn’t mean you’re in pain, therefore you have to have surgery. There’s ways to address this that aren’t drastic, you know what I mean? Yeah.
Carly Hunt
Yes, completely. Yeah, and something else to say about that is the yes, that’s a big question for people, right? Should I have surgery? And for some people, surgery is helpful. But this is also an interesting point around understanding the true nature of chronic pain, which is, interestingly, let’s look at like knee osteoarthritis, for example, you know, your knees like somewhat, you know, your knees hurt.
Typically a person with that condition will go get imaging done of their knees. And in fact, in up to like a third and up to about a third of people with this condition, if they get their knee replaced, it doesn’t actually do anything for their pain, right? Their pain persists. And that speaks to how pain is ultimately produced by the brain and how pain could be really mostly a faulty alarm system making pain. That being said, in a different condition, there could be something in the body.
Again, to use like an autoimmune condition example that’s a contributor. But in both of those cases, doing some work around the psychology of pain is probably going to be helpful because again, pain is complex. There actually isn’t really a one-to-one relationship between tissue damage and pain. And I’ll just add this other interesting. So even as early as the nineties, some researchers did a study in which they had two groups. One group was a group of people that had
Structural abnormalities in their back. So slip discs, bulging discs, these things we hear about. And then another group that didn’t have those imaging findings, like the spine looked like generally healthy and the, the rate of chronic pain in those two groups was actually similar, like undifferentiated. So it just speaks to how like, yes, like you could have something that looks kind of off in your back, but that getting surgery might not be the answer. And I think looking at the problem with a wider lens, like
What are the controllables that I can look at that aren’t surgery? And maybe I should try those, like talk to my doctor about trying those first and see if that has an effect.
Josh Nichols
Yes, I love that and and this this gets into a phrase from the I believe it was from the book was interpreting innocuous information as potential danger so when you and Let’s let’s dial in and bring it to golf specifically. I mean there’s Basically an entire round of golf is full of innocuous
Things that we perceive and interpret as potential danger. And how does that relationship with the game, how you interpret the game, how does that either, can it cause injury or pain to begin? And does it prevent injuries and pain from reducing? Like that bad relationship with the game, does that happen?
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Carly Hunt
Yeah, I think a couple thoughts on that. You certainly raised the point that so much of our world we create with our thoughts and our perceptions and we can train ourselves to view challenging situations in the game, you know, differently, right? More effectively versus kind of seeing things as threatening.
This, I guess you probably have talked about sort of threat versus challenge mindset on this podcast, right? Like if I’m playing in a tournament, do I view it as a challenge that I can handle or is it a threat and now I’m going into fight or flight? And you could apply that to pain, right? Like am I viewing
And is my brain interpreting innocuous information in the body. Like throughout the day, we all have fluctuating things that happen in our bodies, right? Like different sensations. And once pain has become chronic, the brain is more likely to think danger, danger, right? And like, and then we can start to feel that way, right? Like what’s wrong with me and kind of.
Get sort of into more of like a sick mindset, like a sick role situation as opposed to kind of moving towards wellness. So certainly, yes, retraining the brain to view pain sensations themselves through a lens of safety. Like, you know, maybe this is just my brain kind of misfiring as opposed to a reflection of a re-injury or something else, right? That creates more of a sense of safety, which is good for lowering pain volume.
Similarly with our thoughts on the golf course rate in terms of performance, a lot of what supports pain recovery is actually potentially helpful for golf performance too, is to be able to say like, I’m safe, I’m capable, I can handle this, what’s in my control. And then we focus on that in this moment, as opposed to kind of jumping to results or worst case scenarios.
Josh Nichols
Mmm. Mmm.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, I really like the idea that when you’re playing a round of golf and you are experiencing either a mental danger or a physical pain of some kind, you don’t go immediately to judgment. This is wrong. This shouldn’t be here. I’m broken. I need to fix this. I need to
You know, I’ll give an example for myself. I get some lower back pain if I play golf a bunch and don’t warm up great or whatever. But I will immediately go to kind of stretching the whole day, trying to fix it, trying to make it go away. And I guess that could be a good solution for some or it could be for me, I don’t know.
I end up just spending the whole day saying I’m broken, I’m trying to fix myself. And that applies to that pain that I encounter, but also the random things that that thoughts that pop in my head. I, you know, a random, this is a threatening scenario, if you look at that thought with judgment, as opposed to kind of interested curiosity, you’re going to, it’s just, it creates a whole,
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Different war inside of your head, right?
Carly Hunt
Yes, yes. Yeah, you really speak to how when we feel pain, it’s so easy to go to war with the experience, right? And that’s natural, right? So not to judge that, but to notice that and say, huh.
Here I am, it looks like maybe my mind is really starting to fixate on the pain and sort of tell this, you know, the doom and gloom channel is on, right? And even try to bring some humor, like, isn’t that funny? You know? Thank you, brain, for trying to protect me, to try to make sure that I’m okay, right? But, you know, for a lot of low back pain, is…
Josh Nichols
Mmm.
Carly Hunt
Driven by this hypersensitive alarm and to sort of say, okay, like I noticed these sensations. I can kind of let them be in the background and I can refocus on things that I know might help manage the pain without, you know.
Really kind of going down the rabbit hole, right? Like, can I widen the lens of my attention to see, you what’s the next challenge in front of me in terms of my golf performance or positive emotions? Can I just kind of connect with my playing partners? Because, you know, as I talk about in the book, positive emotions, if you’re feeling, you know, confident or content or grateful, whatever, it’s a lot harder to feel threatened, right? So…
It sounds kind of simplistic, but there’s a lot of science backing it up, right? That when we feel a positive emotion and we can get that through a lot of different things, right? Golf, friendships, hobbies. It actually releases our, we have opioids inside our own bodies and we can promote the release of that just through staying engaged in things that are fun, right? Like anything that’s fun. And that could be within a round of golf, like where you choose to put your attention or, you know, outside of the game.
Josh Nichols
Sure.
Carly Hunt
Trying to really be intentional about focusing on those aspects of your experience can impact the pain experience. Because pain is a subjective experience and it’s impacted by a lot of different things. It’s not biologically determined, which is something you and I are talking about and I think is an important kind take home message.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, and this this is something I think about all the time is kind of the again I maybe I think about chicken and egg scenarios too much, but it’s like in order to play good golf You need to be confident or versus you need to be confident in order to play good golf or So I just need to hit that one good shot and then I’ll be confident as opposed to
I need to put myself into a state of confidence which helps me hit good shots and that the again to keep to keep the relation to pain in order to as opposed to like I just need to make my pain go away and then I’ll feel good. You can kind of go out at the maybe bottom up approach where I need to get to. I need to put myself into a physical and mental environment where I feel good which
Can reduce my pain. Is that kind of the right way to look at it?
Carly Hunt
Yes, yes, you make such a good point about what can happen with chronic back pain or other types of chronic pain.
Is that there is this notion like I need to, I need the pain to go down before I can kind of get back into the game, so to speak. So, you know, I’m playing less and less golf. I’m backing away from golf fitness. I’m really afraid of movement basically, because my brain is kind of telling me erroneously, you know, you should just rest, right? It’s kind of acting like you have a chronic pain problem. I mean, an acute pain problem when in fact you don’t. So, so.
Josh Nichols
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Josh Nichols
Mmm.
Carly Hunt
It actually is chronic pain treatment to try to get back into your life and do things that you value and sort of bring the pain with you, so to speak. In collaboration with your care team, you know, it’s always good to have a doctor, a physical therapist, all these people on board. But when it comes to the psychology, yeah, challenging yourself to pace your activity and slowly build up and kind of get back into things and not letting the pain be in charge, right? So.
Josh Nichols
Mmm.
Carly Hunt
It sounds kind of like you mentioned confidence. Yeah. And this is such a challenge for golfers, right? Like, do I wait to feel confident before I can believe in myself? And it is kind of a cycle. Like, successes breed confidence and we can also try to generate confidence internally to promote success. So I think it’s a, it is, it’s a accurate sort of parallel to say, you basically don’t want your internal world to dictate your actions, right? Like, you know, is my pain the decider in whether I.
Play golf or workout or do something similarly is my confidence what is deciding whether I sign up for that tournament or not like you know we always have.
Josh Nichols
You
Carly Hunt
Unwanted internal experiences, be that pain or low competence or whatever. And when those are driving the bus, that’s what gets us into trouble as opposed to saying, I can accept that I don’t, I don’t really like this thing, but I can sort of take it with me. Can almost like have it in a backpack and I can still do that thing that I really value, right? Like my self doubt or my anxiety or my pain, if that makes sense.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, if we always waited to feel good in order to mentally, emotionally, physically, before we did something, we would do very, very, very few things. And we wouldn’t accomplish hard things, we wouldn’t grow, we wouldn’t do that presentation that is extremely nerve wracking, but important for your career, right? Because you’re never gonna feel like this is no big deal, I can’t wait.
Maybe some people do and amazing, some amazing people can feel that way, but I do not. But yeah, I would just never do those things, right? I wouldn’t interview people like you because it’s like, yes, I’m excited, but it’s like, I’m also, it’s like an uncomfortable scenario. So I would just never do that. So yeah, I love that. Don’t let your kind of inner world dictate your outer world. That’s awesome.
Carly Hunt
You
Yeah.
Carly Hunt
Yeah, yeah, I love that too. Yes. Yes, I can say the same thing preparing to come on to your show. It’s, you know, it was like, well, hey, you know, I’m going to bring the nerves with me and do this cool thing. And it’s such a paradigm shift in terms of living one’s life, you know, like rather than trying to get rid of things to just be like, okay, you know, I’ll bring it with me and.
Josh Nichols
Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Love that.
Josh Nichols
Mm. Mm.
Carly Hunt
You know, I can accept, I can be comfortable with the uncertainty of what will happen, right? That’s so much of what think of what anxiety is too, is just trying to be more and more okay with that. Because we can’t know what will happen, you know, in an interview or in a round of golf, but that’s part of the adventure and letting that be okay.
Josh Nichols
Mmm.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, I love that. Okay, so I know this about you, but I also see behind you, I see some USGA stuff. Is that like a Caddy Bib name on the shelf? Maybe, the Hunt? Cool. Got it. Cool. Okay, and I see the USGA maybe is the one where you made the Women’s Mid Amp, right?
Carly Hunt
That’s from a long time ago. That’s from NCAAs in like 2010. But yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I play comp. Yeah. Yes.
Yes, I went to the Women’s Mid-Am when I was 13 weeks pregnant. It was super special and I hope to make it back. Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Yeah. Yes, okay, so you’re a good player, right? You’re not quote unquote just someone who knows a lot about pain and psychology. You’re also a very, very good golfer. I have so much to ask and I don’t even know where to go, but just to start with maybe the downer, how is chronic pain?
Interacted with your golf throughout the years or has it?
Carly Hunt
Yes, yes, I’m happy to speak to that. Yeah. So I, um, I experienced intermittent chronic pain throughout childhood, adolescence, college golf, and beyond, which seemed to be tied with sort of a rare medical illness I had when I was very young. Um, and honestly, I didn’t really think about, I didn’t know anything about pain science. Like neither did my family. We just kind of like dealt with it. Um,
But I got really into golf around age 11. And kind of looking back, I can just sort of see how golf was so empowering for me, like my whole life. You know, was just, I just loved it from the beginning. You know, as you know, golf just gives you so much for your health and just your happiness, you know, social connections, travel, challenging experiences, just the love of the game, like all that. So yeah, so I would say, you know, I honestly…
Focused really hard on golf and academics. And I think the pain was sort of in the background. And now that I’ve studied pain, I sort of see how that’s like a, you know, that’s like a science-backed approach, right? Is to sort of, you know, stay engaged in life without letting the pain take over, right?
So yeah, so I would say that sort of persisted through college golf, but it was was manageable for me, which is great. I did end up going through sort of a much more intense period of like constant, like super high pain in my 20s. And that’s sort of when I got like a firsthand experience of what a lot of people go through, right? It kind of just constant, like all the time pain. And it’s a sad reality for so many people. And it’s so important that, you know, pain science continues to try to support all the people that struggle with this.
But yeah, would say golf is such a passion and it’s definitely given me just so much in terms of my health. And so very grateful for that for sure.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, and before we started, were telling me you had some really young kids. So it sounds like, based on the timeline, you’ve had the young kids since your mid-am experience. So, me too, since the last time I played in a mid-am, we’ve had multiple young kids. So maybe this is totally unrelated and this may be more of a selfish question, but how…
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Carly Hunt
What? yeah.
Josh Nichols
Either are you or how are you still working on your game and staying good at golf?
Carly Hunt
Right, yeah, it’s, I appreciate the question so much. And yeah, I would love to pick your brain too about what it’s been like for you because it’s such a lifestyle change. You know, I, yeah, I played a lot of golf through both of my pregnancies. It was a lot of fun, you know, something our whole family enjoys. But yeah, I mean, there’s definitely been an enormous reduction the amount of time I have to play golf and I have not been playing as well, you know, since I’ve had two kids for sure. So I think I’ve had to bring some acceptance to that and sort of say, okay.
You know, and also trying to be more efficient with the time I have. Like I haven’t taken a golf lesson since 2009. And then I finally was like, you know what? I’m just going to go see Bernie Najar up at Caves Valley and just try to get some like, you know, and that’s been awesome. I’m like, OK, now if I have 20 minutes, I can actually work on something. First is, yeah, when you’re playing all the time, you know, you might not need that as much. But I would say that’s a way, you know, trying to just get some instruction. Hopefully next summer I’ll be back out, you know, doing the qualifiers and stuff. But I also have to bring a lot of like.
I would say self-compassion to the situation because it’s impossible to be good at everything all the time. I love being a mom. Like it’s so much fun. And that’s kind of the season I would say, you know, do I miss being able to play more? Yes, but I’m so grateful that this is where life has gone. I mean, I don’t know. Yeah. How would you say you’re sort of relating to it?
Josh Nichols
Mm.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, man, maybe mine’s a little bit darker, but I think listeners of the podcast kinda know my vibe about this. It’s more of like a mourning a death than like this beautiful new chapter of life. Although it is, it’s just, it’s very, where you said you have to bring acceptance and self-compassion, I have to like grieve this loss.
Carly Hunt
No.
Carly Hunt
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Of this thing that was so, I mean it was my life for so long, but now I have to have, I have to work on kind of either trying to be the person I used to be or letting that person go and being the person I am now and being comfortable in the situation that’s happening right now. So it’s, it’s, it is, it’s a,
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Carly Hunt
Rate.
Carly Hunt
Mm-hmm.
Josh Nichols
Trying to let my past be my past and accept the present reality that golf is more scarce and I’m not going to play as well. I’m interested to know if you’re the same way, but we know what we could be capable of and we step up and expect it of ourselves, but once the ball comes off the club it’s not going where we
Carly Hunt
Mm-hmm.
Josh Nichols
Think it should and at the end of the round, you’re, do you, let’s phrase it like a question. Do you get to the end of a round of golf that, and ever compare it to who you used to be, like I used to be able to do better than this, I’m disappointed in myself because of this, and I know that’s the self-compassion thing, but do you still deal with that? Okay.
Carly Hunt
I mean, even just like my short game. I’m like, I don’t know where, I don’t know how, like it’s just, you know, it’s just like, it’s really, really frustrating. I mean, don’t get the vibe that I’m like, I’ve just like accomplished this whole notion of like acceptance. I mean, it’s, it’s like, I think it comes back to sort of noticing what the mind does, you know? But yeah, I’m not out there hitting wedge shots into baskets anymore for like hours a day. And so.
Josh Nichols
Sure. Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Right.
Carly Hunt
But like, do I want to be doing that? Like, honestly, I don’t, you know? I mean, it’s sort of like, so, but look, I mean, you mentioned grief. I think that’s, that’s huge, right? And like, I think it sort of speaks, not that you’re retiring from golf or that I’ve retired from golf, but it has that element of like retirement, right?
Josh Nichols
Right.
Josh Nichols
Yes.
Carly Hunt
And how huge that is, and it is a grief process. I mean, it just makes me think of, as you were talking, I just like had this memory of when I was at NCAAs with Maryland and it was like my last tournament, like I wasn’t going to try to go pro. And, you know, my coach said to me, like I was on the range and I’m just like peering it. And he said, was like, Carly, enjoy your craft because you know where the ball’s going right now and it won’t always be like that. And I just, I still remember that like to this day. And it was so true. And so.
Josh Nichols
Mm-hmm.
Carly Hunt
I think it’s totally okay to really be grieving. You know, I mean, you were a finalist at the mid-ameter. I mean, that’s incredible. And, you know, and I think, yeah, the transition to parenthood is amazing, but it just brings, it does bring a loss, losses. You know, identity loss is sort of a thing. You know, it’s like, and that’s such a huge thing for golfers, I’m sure with the clients you work with and the clients I work with, it’s like.
Josh Nichols
Yes.
Carly Hunt
Your identity can be so attached to golf and then to have that be interrupted can be, it’s like existential.
Josh Nichols
Man, that’s well said. Did you, for the 2021 mid-am, did you, were you dealing with any pain or situation like that? Did you kind of qualify in spite of how you were feeling or were you on a good level feeling good about yourself and everything was great?
Carly Hunt
Yeah, yeah, I was actually feeling great. Was, you know, and I, yeah, I sort of went through, so I went to graduate school, I ended up doing this postdoctoral fellowship in pain, which I sort of fell into. I didn’t like look for it. But in any case, I ended up doing this postdoc and was researching pain and health and stuff. But yeah, my husband’s a big golfer and, you know, pre-kids, like we were playing 36 holes every weekend. We were just playing all the time. And then
He was kind of like, should try for the mid-am. And I was like, yeah, maybe I will. And so it just was kind of easy, like the qualifier. It was great. It was fun. It was great. But yeah, once I got to the event, that’s when I was 13 weeks pregnant. And I just wanted to, I had horrible morning sickness. Was just like, it was not, so I really, and it was so funny because I’m a sports psychologist. I’ve played college.
Josh Nichols
That’s awesome.
Josh Nichols
Whoa.
Carly Hunt
I study this stuff, but yeah, I remember the second day just waking up in the morning, honestly, and being filled with like pure dread. And I was like, why do I feel like this? Makes no sense because it didn’t matter for anything. It was all for the love of the game, but it’s just amazing like what our minds can do, you know, in pressure situations and managing, you know, as a mid-ams, like, you know, we’re dealing with all the other things now too, like kids, health stuff, like whatever. It’s just interesting.
Josh Nichols
Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, okay, so you woke up with pure dread. Do you, do you feel like you got to the bottom of where that came from?
Carly Hunt
You know, a little bit. Think part of it is like being in pressure. That’s the other thing about mid-am golf is like kind of speaking to your point. I’m not like lifting. I’m not like doing the mental reps of like playing tournaments like week after week. You know, I had gone like years without really competing and then I’m like at the mid-am. So I think it was also just like the novelty of it. You know, your nervous system is like, what is this? You know, so.
Josh Nichols
Hmm
Josh Nichols
Yes, right. Yeah. Comfort zone.
Carly Hunt
That sort of speaks to, think, right, your comfort zone. So sort of like a new challenge with like having kids and playing golf competitively. It’s sort of like, you know, I can imagine, you know, sometimes I do wonder, it’s like, oh, when I turned 50, will I be out, you know, playing and all these amateur events? Like some of the people, know, you go to a mid-am and there are people that are doing that like week in and week out. And then there are others that are not as much. And so I think that was part of it. But honestly, to this day, I still don’t really know. I think it’s just
Josh Nichols
Hmm.
Carly Hunt
I feel like a competitive situation can bring out surprising things. But nonetheless, I had a blast. I really tried to kind of soak in every moment. It was so special. So, yeah.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, USGA events are next level. They’re amazing.
Carly Hunt
Yes. Yes. So are you going to be trying to go out next next season?
Josh Nichols
Yeah, I’ve tried the last 23, 24, 25. I’ve tried each of those, haven’t made it. And each time has been a new lesson in, it was kind of like in 2023, I kind of fully expected myself to still be that same guy, because it had only been a couple of years since I last played in one and played bad and kind of.
Carly Hunt
Mm-hmm.
Josh Nichols
Left really disappointed and down. And then 2024 I played and it was like, I played well, I played really well and still missed it by six. And that was kind of a reality check of like, okay, I’m not, it was like, that was maybe the point of acceptance or grieving the loss or letting the loss go sort of thing where I said, okay, I’m truly not that player anymore. And I’m, I’ve
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Carly Hunt
Thank
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Come to accept it. And then this year was kind of more like a field filler sort of situation where I just like, maybe I’ll catch lightning in a bottle and I’ll play well. I mean, at the time we had the, the qualifier was actually the day that our daughter’s due date, our second kid’s due date, but she came like nine days early. So I was going to, I was going to withdraw, but okay. She came early, healthy, fine.
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Carly Hunt
Okay.
Josh Nichols
So my wife said, yeah, go play. And didn’t play well, but yeah. Next year I absolutely will. But as I sit here now, you know, just under a year away from that, I’m thinking, okay, what can I do over the next 10 or 11 months to maximize time? And honestly, to our conversation is to not hurt myself.
I jump into range sessions or practice sessions and I’ve only got 20 minutes so I’m like trying to hurry things up and I don’t warm up properly and I hurt myself and then I’m down on myself and I can’t swing for a few days and so it’s a whole spiral for me and now I’ve missed a week of playing so now the next time I play I gotta go even harder and I end up in this cycle of just like
Carly Hunt
Again.
Josh Nichols
Not getting to practice much and hurting myself. So that’s an important one for me. So it’s a psychological thing of my process to get back. I don’t know if yours is similar to that.
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Carly Hunt
Right. Yeah, I feel like it really speaks to sort of the time scarcity, you know, like the rush, like, you know, and I can definitely relate to that. I feel like, you know, it’s easy to just kind of rush through like everything. And so that’s a practice I try to adopt too. You even like helping the kids, you know, my toddler get his shoes on, you know, it’s like, you know, kind of just pausing and being like, I don’t have to rush, you know, and right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Yes. Yes.
Josh Nichols
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Yes. Yes.
Josh Nichols
Mm-hmm.
Josh Nichols
What’s the hurry? Yep, yeah, where do we gotta be? Really, truly, yeah, that’s a great point. So to kind of anchor us back to our through line here, so.
Carly Hunt
Right, Yeah.
Josh Nichols
There’s, you know, if a golfer is able to kind of get on the other side of like a hip injury, they’ve had a hip replacement or something, and they’re still kind of compensating for the injury, and they’re still kind of worried about re-injuring it, what’s a mechanism or a tool to…
Carly Hunt
Right.
Carly Hunt
Great.
Josh Nichols
For that golfer to be able to move past it. Like truly there should not be any pain, yet you’re still worried about it. And maybe you’re kind of perceiving something that isn’t truly there.
Carly Hunt
Great.
Carly Hunt
Right, yes. Yes, I think I’ll focus on sort of two things, I guess. So the first one is essentially a mindfulness-based practice. So let’s say this person, you know, they’ve had their hip replaced, medical team says, you’re cleared to play, you know, go for it.
Always a good idea to stay in contact with physical therapy, check in with them. They have the expertise to help you recognize the difference between something, you know, problematic versus kind of like what should be expected, you know, in terms of, you know, what is probably just, you know, misfiring of the brain, kind of like the brain’s habit of making pain. So relating to the pain signals differently. So let’s say the pain starts to ramp up a little bit is to say,
You know, hello pain and to get really curious about it and almost like break it down, break down the sensations into their component parts. Is it sort of a squeeze or a tingling sensation or, you know, let me just sort of recognize and allow this experience and be curious, right? And that in of itself brings down your brain’s threat level. Cause instead of like, I’ve re-injured myself, I’m getting nowhere. You know, you’re suddenly like, okay, I can like let this be. And then
The second piece of that is sort of really consciously labeling those sensations differently as, this is just my brain being hyperprotective right now. This is just my brain making pain because it thinks that I still might be injured, but I’m safe. You know, saying I am safe. I am okay. And practicing that sort of safety, appraising pain through a lens of safety, to use sort of a jargony term. And if listeners are interested in this practice,
They should look up pain reprocessing therapy and the pain psychology center. Maybe we can put these links up somewhere, but basically you can practice what’s called a safety reappraisal. Meaning I used to view my pain sensations as threats, but I can retrain my brain to view them as just the brain, the brain’s hypersensitive alarm, just making these sensations. They don’t mean anything. Doesn’t, there’s nothing really wrong with me.
Josh Nichols
Mm-hmm.
Josh Nichols
Mm-hmm.
Carly Hunt
Hurt does not mean harm, essentially. Like, hurt means harm when you have an acute injury. But when pain just goes on and on and on, hurt doesn’t mean harm anymore. It’s just sensations. Changing that relationship. And it’s a practice, right? So if someone’s been in pain for a while, it’s going to probably take some time to rewire the brain, right? So anyway, there are lots of resources online. And I have lots of resources in my book to kind of like do that mental training, so to speak. So that’s one practice I say listeners could start doing right away.
Josh Nichols
Hmm.
Carly Hunt
Another practice has to do with the brain’s reward system. So when you have pain, persistent pain, you start to fixate on the pain, right? The pain can start to dominate. It causes you to make certain types of decisions. You can kind of go in this downward spiral like you were talking about. We’re all familiar with the downward spiral, but research shows that
Josh Nichols
Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Yes.
Carly Hunt
Upward spirals are also possible, right? So basically building on strengths, rewiring the brain and kind of getting back to a level of functioning that feels good, right? So the reward system is the part of the brain that makes us want to go after and enjoy rewarding things, you know, like playing golf or seeing friends or whatever it is. And if there are listeners on the call that have found that fun things just don’t feel that fun anymore,
That can be reward system dysfunction at work. Basically, the pain is dominating. So there’s not that much brain power left over to sort of focus on positive things that sort of build up our body’s internal pharmacy of painkillers like we were talking about before. So a simple practice that listeners can do is called savoring. So basically, if you’re used to sort of glossing over all the positive safe things in your life, you can’t really notice them.
Josh Nichols
Hmm.
Carly Hunt
Can retrain yourself to really include those things. And this will probably relate back to like golf psychology also. But quite simply, we all know what savoring is. Like you savor a good meal, you’re really kind of immersed in it, right? You really notice the whole experience through all of your senses, and you’re just letting all those positive feelings sort of be present. You’re sort of lingering in that experience. And so even if one were to take like five minutes,
Josh Nichols
Mm.
Carly Hunt
Let’s say you’re like sitting outside on a beautiful fall day, I’m looking at my window at these beautiful trees and sort of say like, you know, I’m going to notice my experience through my senses. And I’m really going to allow these positive feelings to kind of stick around. Like if you hit a good golf shot, it’s a different, you know, you could hit a good golf shot and be like, you know, that’s what I expect. And I’m just moving on. Or you could be like, yeah, like I’m really good at golf. Like, and kind of let that kind of register. So that’s another mental training practice that has science behind it, which is.
Josh Nichols
Mm-hmm.
Josh Nichols
Mm.
Carly Hunt
Basically boosting your reward system by practicing something like sabering. Other things that might resonate with listeners are like gratitude practices, acts of kindness, altruism, know, just doing valued activities, whatever that is, but really kind of bringing mindfulness to those activities, slowing down and kind of opening your attention to all the safe and good things versus like the narrow attention on all the threats, if that makes sense.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, because a round of golf can can turn into like this is a four-hour war against my my pain and Everything I do today is I’m fighting against my own body and I’m I’m trying to Distract myself from what I’m feeling. I’m trying to pretend it’s not there or I’m trying to fix it or I’m trying to
Numb it out or something. So you’re you’re saying okay, let’s say your left hip is in a little bit of pain or a lot of pain or whatever but like still safe to be playing golf it’s just like you’re you’re in some pain and You’re saying instead of kind of ignoring it or pretending it’s not there or trying to just power through it you’re saying kind of stop and pay attention to it and maybe be with
Carly Hunt
Yes.
Josh Nichols
The pain? Is that sit with the pain?
Carly Hunt
Yeah, I look, yes, in this. It, I think that’s part of it. Think, I think if you’re like playing a round of golf, because there are different ways to cope with pain, right? Like, you know, I think the strategy of kind of like mindfully allowing and creating an attitude of safety and acceptance, kind of stopping the war, basically, I think that’s how you summarize that is kind of like a strategy you could apply in different contexts.
Josh Nichols
Correct me if I’m way off.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Carly Hunt
If you’re playing, you know, it can, you know, attention is a big factor in pain too. Like what are we paying attention to? So it could be adaptive to say like, yeah, kind of bring that mindfulness to it. Like, okay, I noticed this pain is here. I might not like how this feels, but I’m safe. Like my body is safe. My brain’s misfiring a little bit. Like, okay, like let me try to sort of soothe my nervous system rather than ramp it up through all the negativity and like the
Doom and gloom, right? So like, you you mentioned that. But then, yeah, I think kind of refocusing your attention on something positive, and that could be like your target, right? Or your pre-shot routine or your playing partner is kind of like, basically not letting the pain dominate. So that might be, you know, including all these other things in your attention. Like ignoring something sometimes has that flavor of like, I’m really gonna like ignore this. And then you’re paradoxically kind of still at war with it versus being like, you know, I can let it be there.
Josh Nichols
Great.
Josh Nichols
Yeah. Yes.
Carly Hunt
And look at what else is here in addition to it, you know, to kind of bring down the level of, you know, how much your nervous system is like ramped up.
Josh Nichols
Right, yeah, there’s a big difference between fixation on it and obsession on it and acceptance or noticing and accepting, right? There’s such a big difference between those two.
Carly Hunt
Right. Yes. Yeah. I think the word fixation is so useful, right? And I think many golfers, myself included, you we can be really good at fixating on things like getting better, like whatever, you know, but it’s like, if it’s on the pain, that’s like not really super helpful, right? It’s kind of better to note it, allow and say, yeah, what can I do to try to bring down the volume? Right? Is maybe that’s my physical activity, you know, always warming up the way that I know that I need to, you know, taking care of myself, right? You know, good sleep, good diet.
Josh Nichols
Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Mm.
Carly Hunt
You know, good social connections, like all that stuff, kind of ongoing stuff. But yeah, even in the moment of like a practice session or a round of golf, yeah, saying like, you what would help me? What would be the most helpful thing to focus on right now? And kind of pausing versus like reacting and fixating to say like, okay, maybe really focusing in on my pre-shot routines and, you know, chatting with this person I’m walking with is gonna help me kind of stay more grounded.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, yeah, I always always try to help golfers kind of notice and accept and Refocus on something important, right? There’s a There’s an acronym in in psychology, I forget who kind of coined it but it’s RAIN R-A-I-N Recognize Accept Investigate and then Note or Now some people have different
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Versions, but yeah, it’s you got to start in as opposed to pretend it’s not there fight it whatever you recognize it where you start by recognition and Then you say okay, it’s there. Right? It’s not It doesn’t own me. I It’s just It’s simply there. And then you can Maybe investigation isn’t always the best thing to do in the middle of a round of golf where you’re kind of
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Chewing at the deeper meaning of why I’m fixated on it and stuff like that. But you can shift from acceptance to, okay, what do we wanna do now? What’s important right now? Another acronym, W.I.N. What’s Important Now? It’s not, right, My pain is there, but it’s not, it doesn’t dominate. It’s not the most important thing right now. It can be there while I’m doing the thing that I wanna do.
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Carly Hunt
Great. Great.
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Carly Hunt
Great.
Josh Nichols
And that pain, the sensation of pain is, by the sounds of it, is the same as the presence of nerves or the presence of fear or the presence of the random thought about your post-round acceptance speech or something. Those thoughts can be addressed in the same way as thoughts about pain. Do you feel like that’s true? Okay.
Carly Hunt
Yes.
Carly Hunt
You
Carly Hunt
Mm-hmm. I do. Yes, for sure. Kind of taking that mindful approach, right? Like thoughts are not facts. Recognizing and allowing instead of trying to vanquish or get rid of, because then you’re just focused on getting rid of as opposed to playing golf, right? Like, and then yeah, investigation, think, yes, I think you’re right that sometimes it’s not so helpful to go like super deep into something.
Josh Nichols
Yes.
Carly Hunt
But I also think it’s, know, investigating can be like, yeah, what, am I believing about the pain? And is that true? You know, am I believing that this is going to totally sideline me? Like what’s the doom and gloom story? And can I just sort of, yeah, notice that too, without like buying in and then coming back to the moment. Yeah, I love that rain acronym. I think it’s like applicable to so many areas. Yeah.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, because We have this narrative running in the back of our head and we can, it kind of just runs the show on autopilot if we don’t notice it of the the doom and gloom thing. I’m just in pain and I’m just gonna be miserable today because of it. You can kind of like step away from it and kind of say, why am I assuming that’s true? Right, that narrative is kind of just.
Carly Hunt
You
Josh Nichols
I’m kind of creating that narrative and letting it run me when you can say, doesn’t need to be true. I can experience the same physical sensations, the same experiences on the golf course, the same circumstances, and interpret them and feel totally different about them just depending on how I choose to approach them.
Carly Hunt
Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I think like it’s kind of making me think of that other, this is from some psychologists too, like that your attention is like a flashlight, you know, only what you shine it on is what’s really in your consciousness, you know? So how am I choosing to do that? And am I shining it only on the pain or am I including all these other things that might feel supportive?
You know, am I, and you know, am I being my own best coach encouraging myself or am I beating myself up because I didn’t warm up right or whatever, whatever, which kind of contributes to like the downward versus saying like, how can I sort of look forward, you know, with more kindness?
Josh Nichols
Yes. Yeah. Okay. Well, Carly, this has been true, true pleasure. I, I am really looking forward to sending this to everybody and sending your book to everybody recommending this podcast and your book. When someone approaches me kind of, I’ve been dealing with pain and truly I think this, this book gets at, sure. The main ideas about pain, but if you,
If you do what the book is saying and follow your same kind of recommendations and tools and practices and ways of viewing things, it will address way more than just pain. This book is really awesome for that. So the book is Train Your Brain to Beat Chronic Pain. It’s got a cool little jingle to it.
Carly Hunt
Yeah.
Carly Hunt
Yeah, thank you.
Carly Hunt
Yeah. Yeah. It does.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, and it’s how to harness the power of the mind-body connection. So yeah, it’s about pain, but it’s, I think, generally applicable. Really, really, really good stuff. So the book, anything else you want to push people to?
Carly Hunt
Thank you.
Carly Hunt
Just echo that. Think the book is really heartfelt for me. Know, as I’ve said, I’ve lived through…
Chronic pain and I was lucky enough to get to study it in depth and it’s really near and dear to my heart and I do agree that it can help with you know life golf lots of things to just kind of support well-being so yeah I hope it’ll be useful to people and yeah it’s just such a privilege to talk to such an incredible golfer and you know mental coach you know Josh so thank you so much yeah yeah
Josh Nichols
Yeah, Carly, this has been a pleasure. Thank you.
