Podcast Transcript
Josh Nichols
Michael Leonard, three books comprising dozens and dozens of tips and tricks and tools and holistic changes and mindsets and perspective shifts. Is golf that hard?
Michael Leonard
Actually four books, Josh. So yeah, golf golf is that hard. Yeah. And then the wicked smart golf fitness formula. So we had the mental side dialed in, but then we had to get on the fitness side because we got to got to have those gains. So I would say, yes, golf is that hard, but it’s just like you have to learn all this stuff off the course so you can start applying it on the course. So I do my best to interview a lot of smart people like yourself and all kinds of other players and experts and distill it.
Josh Nichols
No way. Okay, there’s the three wicked smart books. What’s the fourth? The fitness one Yes, yes.
Michael Leonard
I’m kind of a guinea pig out there. I’m patient zero. So I test all this stuff out of myself, all the training aids, all the fitness stuff, all the speed training, and then share what works and just try to try to get people away from the swing stuff. I just feel like everyone is working on their swing all day, every day. There’s no swing tips in any of those four books. I don’t think maybe some setup stuff, but to me, it’s like, if we could just work on some of those other areas, we’ll get more consistent and lower the handicap, which is what every golfer is searching for.
Josh Nichols
And you you and I were talking before I hit record on your own golf development and you’re already a very good player. You’re already better than ninety-nine point seven percent of I don’t know. you’re you’re a w what’s your handicap currently? Okay, plus two point two. So you’re a very, very good golfer, but you told me you have a goal to get to plus five. Like that’s that we’re getting to ridiculous territory. But how are you continuing to improve when we’re when we’re talking about golf really is that hard? What what is continuing to be the hardest thing for you to continue to improve?
Michael Leonard
I’d say it’s just consistently going super low in tournaments and just back to back days and you know, the hardest courses out there, the bigger the competition, it’s just a consistent, like to me it’s been a lot of mindset stuff this year of like, I remember last year I was seven under through 12 and then I was so excited, I remember it vividly, I was like telling myself, I’m like, seven under, I’m seven under. Like I had never been out there in that low in competition and then I just shit the bed. mean, that’s the only way to say it. I went double bogey bogey and they weren’t like good ones. Like I chunked a wedge, thinned a shot, like just melted down because I went away from everything I know because I was so excited. But like my mind, my swing and game had caught up to what I wanted, but we didn’t train to go that low. And so brain was like, whoa, this is scary. What are we doing here? Ended up shooting 69 and you know, was like the saddest 69 ever. again, I know players are like, man, I would kill for that. But it was one of those things where I learned such a vital lesson about training to be in certain circumstances.
So whether you’re trying to break 90, 80, 70, like all of it has to do with getting your mind in that space first. And it helps with off the course too, whether you’re building a business or relationships, like we got to start to kind of see it a little bit more. And I, was one of those moments where I realized, wow, we have to have the skills, definitely the distance, the routines, everything like that, but then we have to have that ability to say, let’s have fun or let’s reframe this from a threat and more of a challenge. And also I have this good quote from one of my favorite entrepreneurs I listened to. He talks about it in business, only the paranoid survive, but I think that’s the same thing for golf. And so like when I’m playing well, I’m like leaning into it, but I’m also saying, know, danger’s lurking anywhere, especially if you’re at a tough course, you never know what can happen. So it’s like, let’s keep our foot down. Let’s stick with the process, but at the same time, run through the finish line. Don’t just try and guide it in.
Josh Nichols
So the only the paranoid survive mentality, is that is that an argument for I don’t know, t to me, only the paranoid survive, and maybe you can correct me. To me that feels like you almost like take the foot off the gas and you start kind of looking over your shoulder and worrying what could happen and try to get safe and which is so easy to do when you’re seven under through twelve or seven over through twelve, you’re trying to break eighty. How do you get out? I’m I’m assuming you want to not get scared and look over your shoulder for what could happen. So what does that paranoid the only the paranoid survive? Like, is that am I getting that wrong? Am I misinterpreting that quote?
Michael Leonard
Yeah, so the way I look at it is, yeah, I am playing good and I will acknowledge that and I’ll say, yeah, I am playing good, but what can we do on that next shot? So that’s kind of where it’s like, yeah, things are going well, but like golf can happen. You make one loose swing, you get a bad bounce and all of a sudden, you you make a bogey or you have a costly three putt and then you kind of get in your head. So the only the paranoid survived to me is saying, yeah, let’s acknowledge it, but then let’s get back to the job. Too many of us time travel. And in that moment, I remember vividly I thought what the picture was going to look like of the scorecard next to me, cause there’s, there’s water right on 18. And I was already thinking of like 62. I’m calling my parents, calling my buddies, you know, like on the way home, I was already there. And so I was like, that was just a constant reminder of we got to be right here, but acknowledging it also was part two of it. So I had a great guest in a sports psychologist. I guess she’s a NLP practitioner and does all kinds of, timeline therapy and great stuff. Last year, Debbie O’Connell. It was right after that incident. I had a coaching call with her and we realized that when you are playing good lean into that say Hey, I am doing it but it’s like there’s nothing to be scared of but at the same time being like, of course I’m playing well not like a cocky way You’re not like telling this to other people but this is something you’re doing internally to remind yourself I’m safe. But at the same time, let’s keep it going like do what got us here. Don’t just get away from it and to me I used to go into drifting too much to try to guide it around the course. Now it was like, at that time where I was like, hey, we gotta one, acknowledge it, but then two, we gotta get back. Because you never know what can happen. Just because you’re playing good for 12 holes doesn’t mean a bad swing can’t pop up and totally shake your confidence, no matter how good you get, right? So that’s kinda how I look at it.
Josh Nichols
Is it like a you’re you’re in those situations and you’re you acknowledge the the fears and you acknowledge how maybe fragile this feels or how important this feels or the time traveling and is is preparing for that obviously being in the situation a bunch and and putting yourself in that situation, making it more of a comfort zone, so it’s not so novel and so outside your comfort zone. Obviously that’s important. Is there other ways to train for that without cause it’s hard to get to seven under through twelve often enough to get to practice it? Is there ways to prepare for that or a or a player that wants to break eighty, but you know, gets gets in that situation once a month or, you know, three times a year? And it’s just so crazy every time it happens. How can you prepare for that before you even get to that situation?
Michael Leonard
think there’s two strategies that work. One of them is just teeing it forward and getting, seeing that number happen a little bit more often, seeing yourself having more birdie putts, maybe some eagle putts. Now you’re driving a par four or you’re just seeing it, even if it’s a different tee box, like you’re still writing the scores down, you still gotta make putts. And so I think that that is one thing Bryson has talked about a lot and I used to do it a little bit more. And then I kind of got to the place where I was really only doing tournaments and practice rounds and it really wasn’t ever getting to that place. If you go super low in a tournament, it’s not, unfortunately, it’s not 65 all the time yet. So it’s like, started to just play more, like lot of the men’s leagues I play, they play a tee up from the tips. And so I was constantly getting myself in that situation more. And then you get back to the normal tees or the tips for tournament golfers. And it’s like, yes, even though it’s longer, have longer clubs in, mentally I’ve already been there. I know what to do. Maybe it’s even been at the same course.
So I think that’s one thing and ego, we just got to ditch the ego. So many golfers specifically guys, I’m talking to you on this one, play a tee up, play two tees up. Like people think they are just going to break through this mental plateau when they never give themselves the actual physical priming of it. So do a tee or two up, have more wedges, get on those par fives. And then all of a sudden you start to feel those nerves and those are going to be the same nerves you’re going to feel when you’re playing the normal tees or you’re in that club championship or tournament.
So I think that is one thing that I highly recommend. And then this year I’ve leaned so heavily into visualization using an app called Cairo. It’s K-A-I-R-O and it’s created by the sports psych. Do you know about it? feel like, did you do something with them? Okay. So I had the sports psych on the podcast and I got introduced to it through a friend of a friend and I have leaned into it so much. In fact, let’s see how many minutes I’ve visualized this year because it’s one of those things where I knew about the importance of visualization. We hear about it from top athletes in all sports. But it’s one thing to hear about it and learn about the benefits, read about it in a book, but then you just go and sit in your room and try to visualize. It’s hard to do. We’re stuck to this thing all the time. So we already have these short attention spans. But to me, I was like, love mental training and I love visualization. I love that idea, but how do I do it? And so once this app came along, we’ve visualized 97 times for almost 1,000 minutes now.
And a lot of that has been simply going lower, learning how to do it and giving myself the situation. So you go in, you type in the prompt, you know, it gets to know you so well too. And it starts to know my mantras and what I say to myself. And when I go through my breathing rituals and what I do after a bad shot and how I have a post shot routine, it knows everything. And so it’s really priming. So mentally I’ve shot in the low 60s thousands of times almost, you or by the time this year’s over, I will have. And so I think that that’s kind of the second component. So yeah, you have to have the skills, but I think also just like I said, I was so mentally out of my comfort zone during that round. And unfortunately I didn’t get back there for a while because I had a kind of hectic second half of the year, but I was like, man, I’ve been there. I know I can do it. And so I feel like those two strategies should help a lot.
Josh Nichols
Mm. Tell me more about visualization. What what do people get wrong about visualization typically and what what’s quote unquote the right way to visualize?
Michael Leonard
Yeah, so I think a lot of people just get into outcome based. So you’re just thinking about winning the tournament or shooting the 65 or the 79 or the 71 or whatever your scoring goal is when a lot of times it’s visualizing your process and you’re doing that over and over again because a lot of times when pressure gets up, you ditch your routines, you go away from what got you there. You think about the result. You’re stressed over what this other guy in your group’s doing. You start to think about all these things that are out of your control. And so I think the biggest thing for me is like let’s actually train just like what I do after every shot. When do I breathe? How do I pick targets? When do I, you know, look at my targets? How long is my routine? So it’s like trying to just get in training the same thing. And then the results, you know, it’s cliche, but the results eventually do just take care of themselves because you’re so focused on what you do to play your best golf. And it just becomes kind of habitual in who you are. So I’d say that’s probably the biggest thing.
And then the other one is just they skip around. They go, I’m going to work on my wedges today. And then I want to on my mental game tomorrow and then my driving the next day. It’s like when I talk to the sports psych who is behind it all, he’s like, we need to go at least seven to 10 sessions on this. We gotta like dig deep. So you kind of create the neural pathways. They become like a dirt path, but you need to make them like a concrete path. You need to make them more more part of who you are. And so if you just dabble around a little bit too much, and I made that mistake, you when I first got started with the app too, because I didn’t realize it. And so once I started being like, let’s really get it like dialed in, kind of like your swing, you know, if you’re trying to work on 10 different things, it’s probably not gonna be effective. But if you’re just working on one thing, like your takeaway or your grip, and that becomes good, you check that box, then we move on. But too many golfers are doing nine things at once and then wondering why we’re not getting results.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, and and kind of deploying I I think a mistake that a lot of golfers I mean, with everything in golf is like deploying some sort of tip or trick after the after the bad thing happened, right? I I just I was about to break eighty for the first time and sliced one out of bounds. So I need to like eliminate my slice. Like I need to do that now and I’m gonna Google YouTube, all this all this stuff. And then with visualization it’s like all right, for this one tournament upcoming. I’m gonna do one visualization and really put myself into that winning mindset. I’m gonna do that one time the day before the round or something, as if this is going to just manifest this and and and we we deploy as like the just like like a quick hit as opposed to like a a total state or or like trait change. Like you have to change yourself in order to get these benefits. Like you said, neural pathways and like that sports psych was saying, seven to ten times just to like you gotta like start a path to to just just have something have a place where your brain goes, let alone turn it into something that your brain can do. And the brain I need to have that guy on. I I I’m trying to get that guy on. yeah.
Michael Leonard
yeah, I’m happy to connect you guys. He was so great and he’s worked with so many Olympians and just, you know, so many sports. It’s all the same things though, right? It’s all whether you’re doing bobsled, he was talking about to golf and everything in between that the same you just hear about all these elite athletes. Tigers talked about it. I mean, so many people but again, it’s just hard to do it. So I love that the app guides you along and it’s six to 10 minutes. Everybody has that. And if you don’t, we need to take a look at that schedule.
But like just to make it really easy, like I went through a minor swing change earlier in February with my wedges. Specifically it was just wedges, I was taking it too far inside, getting too steep, and I wasn’t able to really rotate and I was hitting a lot of inconsistent shots. Kinda like the one that screwed up the seven under through 12. And there was some scar tissue there as well. And so I got a lesson, so we understood conceptually what to do. So my three, like the swing thoughts were I need to take it outside and then I need to lay it off and then I need to rotate. That’s obviously a ton to think about. So during weeks of endless sim practice, most of the time just with a lob or sand wedge, I’m doing those three things. And then at night or in the morning or sometimes multiple times a day, I have then taken those three thoughts into feels. And the feel for me for all three of those was left hand leads the way. So it felt like if my left hand kind of guided it outside at the beginning, everything else kind of took care of itself. So then with the app, I told it what was going on. I told it the thoughts I had, let’s make this a feeling so I’m not technical on the course. And so then I’m physically doing the reps, but then mentally at home, I’m getting those reps as well. And so I think that really helped speed up success.
Josh Nichols
Hm, I love that. Yeah. I I wanna I wanna get that that guy on and and expose more people. Expose my listeners more to to Cairo and visualization in general. So that’s awesome. Why do we play worse in competition? As as just like a a general concept. Why does that happen in your experience?
Michael Leonard
Lot of reasons. I had a coach once tell me that you’re going to hit it best in practice. You’re not going to hit quite as good during a casual round and you’re going to hit it worse in a tournament round just because typically stress is elevated. Stress is elevated. We’re going to have not as good as decision making. Motor control is going to be not quite as good. And so like you said kind of earlier too, we have to just get ourselves in competition more. You know, I once heard, I can’t remember if it was a guest or someone on a different podcast. I don’t even know if it was golf related like you know, the guys that are comedians, they don’t just get up and do their Netflix special. They do 50 little shows testing out the jokes, make sure it works. It’s proven. Then they go out there. And so tournaments, if you have one club championship a year and that’s the only thing and you circle on your calendar and you’re building it up and people are like, what do you what do you know? How’s your game? Well, I got the club championship coming up. I got the club championship. So you put all this stress on this one day and it’s like if everything doesn’t click, we’re just not going to have, know, the desired result. We might get really you know, hurt and upset. Now you’re shame and embarrassed and like all these negative emotions come with it. So I think it’s one understanding that everyone’s going to play a little bit worse in competition. So kind of like you said, during our first episode together, you have to get really, really good in practice and like emphasize practice. And then like you said in our interview to just let the results kind of take care of themselves. But a lot of players don’t practice hard enough and they don’t actually play during the rules of golf during casual rounds. And then they wonder why things change during tournament rounds.
Not to mention you’re going to be paired with different people. I’ve been paired with some players that I absolutely cannot stand as human beings. That’s a challenge. We don’t face that during normal rounds sometimes. So you’re playing with weird people. Sometimes you’re playing with someone that’s maybe quiet or maybe talk too much or freaks out and throws clubs. Maybe you’re playing a course that’s longer than normal. Now all of a sudden you got pin sheets. The pins are tighter. The greens are faster. You know, all these things kind of come into play. And so if you can get more reps in tournaments, it will help. even if you do have a two day club championship and that’s the only thing you can actually really schedule in for the most part, what if a week or two weeks before you can play a money game and you just start to get some something on the line or you do find a one day USM tour or you play in something else just to start to kind of prime your mind and your body for it. So that way you start to develop more tournament routines. But I think it also just comes down to playing by the rules of golf when you actually have normal rounds. If you’re just taking free drops all the time and there’s nothing on the line. tournaments are gonna be a rude awakening.
Josh Nichols
Mm, and a two foot putt that you would rake is not not as easy when you actually have to finish out. And just the concept of there is there is no upper limit to what I can shoot today. Like the I I I could shoot a hundred and eighty, right? You you y you can’t stop. Like there’s no rule that will stop you. There’s no pickup. So in depending on the tournament.
Michael Leonard
Yeah, no, no. What is it? The 10-run rule like we had in Little League? We don’t have that.
Josh Nichols
Right. So just that concept of like this could get totally out of hand, but exposing yourself to that situation more and more, that’s I whenever I I’ve been playing with the with the same guy and I’m I’m always I say eighteen cups. Like we’re you have to tap everything in. I think it’s a it’s a character builder. And you talk a lot about a lot in your most recent recent Wicked Smart the the one about tournaments. You talk how it has benefits not just within like play tournaments in order to get better at playing tournaments. It has aspects that help life in general and help you as a person. what do you tell tell me more about some of those?
Michael Leonard
Yeah, so Wicked Smart Golf 3 kinda came about while I was writing the sequel and the second one was getting pretty big. It was already at like 500 pages and Amazon’s like, we can only print it at 550 or 600 or whatever it was. And I was like, okay, I was kinda writing both books basically at the same time. That’s why there’s only like a six month leeway between them because I realized breaking 80 and getting to scratch golf is its own quest. And then you throw in tournaments and that’s kind of a whole separate thing. And so my tournament golf journey started when I was young and I played in high school. very unsuccessfully, had the world’s worst college tryout, played very, very horribly for two years in college. So again, I have a ton of horrible memories in terms of score, plus I was, my frontal lobe was far from developed, I’m not sure it still is, but we’re getting there. So I have all these kind of young junior golf moments, but then at the same time, I realized some of my favorite moments ever have been in tournaments, and I love testing myself. And so that’s when I started to kind of write this, when I realized I’d played 300 tournament days, including Q School, I’m like, there’s certain things that I just do that I don’t think a lot of players have even thought about, because they just haven’t been exposed to that much tournament golf. So that’s why I eventually wrote that. And one of the first chapters is talking exactly about that of there’s so many benefits to life as well. It’s like you set a goal. So I kind of think about it like when you’re going on vacation, you want to lose a couple pounds, you got a cruise coming up, beach vacation, you want to tidy up the diet and the workouts.
You circle something on the calendar. Then you create a plan to do it. Maybe you recruit help with a trainer or nutritionist or an accountability buddy. And then you put in the work. You see what’s working. You know, I’m weighing myself, checking my body fat. You know, that’s really working or that isn’t so much. I gotta change the approach. The exact same thing happens with tournaments. The same thing if you’re growing a business, if you’re trying to change something in your career, like we have to kind of set goals and set the big goal, set the process, and then just kind of rinse and repeat. And then at the end of the day, you are gonna hit some of the best shots ever in competition and you might pull it together for some epic rounds and you’re gonna be so proud of yourself that it is insanely addictive, but it also just shows you that hard work works if you put in the work. Too many golfers want all these amazing results, but they practice once a week for 30 or 45 minutes or they want this awesome body and they work out twice a week and eat crap all the time.
And again, it’s hard to make change. The brain loves comfort. So I love that tournaments get you out of that comfort zone and they make you become a different person. If you really go all in and you get that tournament bug, I think it’d be very hard for me to believe that you wouldn’t improve in other areas of your life because the blueprint is the same across everything.
Josh Nichols
Hmm. What is it about getting out of your comfort zone that is so important? Why, you know, why not just stay comfortable? You know, if if life is like, I just want to have fun, right? I don’t wanna I don’t wanna be uncomfortable. Why why do that? Like tournament golf is stressful. It’s like I I mean, it’s I I know players that are like, it is not fun. So to to those players well let let’s stay on the on the why is it why why is it so valuable to be uncomfortable? Like why is that an important
Michael Leonard
I just think it’s part of being a human being. I think that we’re so conditioned for comfort that Amazon delivers instantly. The Uber Eats is there in an hour. Like we just have so much comfort. And when you’re comfortable, like, I don’t know, for me, I’ve pushed myself so many times, whether it’s quitting the job, getting into tournament golf, going to Q school, like doing things that are so out of my comfort zone that literally made me so nauseous that I almost puked before the first tee. Then I ended up having one of the best days ever. And like a moment that if you ask me top five golf memory, day one of Q school is if you looked at me beforehand, you’d be like, this guy’s gonna puke. But it ended up being one of the greatest memories ever. And the same thing, when I quit my job, I mean, you talk about terrifying. Everyone, including my family, except my girlfriend was like, are you, like, my girlfriend was the only one that was like, I believe in you, you’ll figure it out. Meanwhile, I didn’t really believe in myself, I kinda did, but I was like, let’s figure it out. Now it’s like one of the most rewarding things in the world. So I think that when you’re chasing a goal, whether, whatever that is that you don’t have to quit your job. You don’t play, you know, 50 tournament days a year. But if you just get out of your comfort zone, you’ll start to see what’s possible and you just get to be proud of yourself. To me, I just, hate doing the same thing over and over again and just being like, you know, knowing that I have the potential for more. And I think I’ve kind of brainwashed myself with a lot of, you know, self help or if you will, and motivational podcasts and I love to see people like the David Goggins of the worlds or, you know, these guys that get into golf late or, they become, you know, a senior tour or whatever it is, you find these inspiring stories and it’s like, if they can do it, why can’t I? And even if you don’t get all the way to your goal, you’re still going to get to that next level. And you start to, you start to be the change you want to see in others. And it inspires a lot of people and it’s just very addictive to set goals, fail your way to success, and then just kind of rinse and repeat it. So I guess that’s a long winded answer of saying it it’s part of being a human, it’s so easy to be comfortable. And most people are in every area of their life. When you’re not, you start to be that change and people want to be around that and they want to learn from you and they want to do it too. And when I get these, you know, amazing emails from people that read the books or listen to the show and they make changes and it’s helping them off the course, I get the chills just thinking about it because I, have those days where, you know, I’m, don’t want to do it. I don’t want to record the podcast. I don’t want to write the next chapter. And then I’ll go into these folders and I’ll see these people that have had life-changing stuff from just getting out of their comfort zone, it’s addictive.
Josh Nichols
Mm. That’s awesome, man. That’s awesome. This one you should you should have a lot of knowledge of personally. is anger bad?
Michael Leonard
I have a ton of unfortunately or fortunately, but yeah, I guess I, you know, day after the a U S open here and seeing Wyndham and, the ups and downs he’s had to go through. have a, a unique relationship with the anger. I don’t know if it’s ever going to be conquered at this point. I feel like I’ve done a lot, but I don’t think I’m going to ever be that guy that just goes with the flow. And, I think that anger actually, the more I talk with a lot of sports sites and have them on and I’ve can’t even tell you how many different things and modalities I’ve tried over the last seven, eight years. But to me, anger isn’t that bad if you get it in front of you and you get it in control. So the Hulk, when he’s running wild in the Avengers, just like tearing up cities, that’s not good. But if he’s focused on the enemy, it’s actually really good. It’s more of an emotion that you can learn how to control, but you have to kind of figure that out. And so I don’t know, I love my dad. I think I got it from him. I’ve seen him get real angry over the years and I picked that up and maybe I was predisposed to it or maybe that’s just me. But I used to just definitely let it get the best of me and now it’s more, it’s very short and then I use that because it does bring energy. I had a coach on and she’s like, I’d rather have you be angry than sad or depressed because those are low energy, low frequency. If you’re angry, but then you get it back to directing that anger.
Josh Nichols
Mm.
Michael Leonard
almost re reframing it, not to be angry, but like focused or, you know, what it fired up, however you want to say. But yes, I think it can help you out if you learn how to control it. Bruce Banner, you know, had to figure that out with the heart rate on his watch and figure out how to, you know, kind of have that. So you definitely it’s, not going to always be great. It has got me in trouble in golf and life, but it has been a process of understanding how to use it for your, for your advantage.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, do you do you try do you strive to be even killed?
Michael Leonard
I strive to be, to get over things quicker. That like, when I really think back to like early tournament days and junior golf days, I would just let one bad shot or one bad break just like spiral. So now it’s like, I don’t really try to be even keeled, but I try to process it as fast as possible. So that way we can focus on what’s next.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, do you do you kind of employ the like tiger whatever ten steps or ten seconds? Like it do you do you actually like have a thing that you like practice like a tool or is it more of a today I’m gonna try to like is it more of a big shift in your overall perspective?
Michael Leonard
You know, I think some days you just wake up a little differently each day as well. But I do absolutely employ, I got five different post-shop processes that I talk about in my books. And one that works really well for me is the 10 steps, but I don’t walk a lot in Arizona because it’s scorched earth here so much. like I do have the US Am qualifying this week and we do have to walk and it’s gonna be only 98 up in Sedona. So it’ll be pretty, pretty chilly. And so I will be definitely using the 10 steps on that one, but a lot of times I ride in carts. So then in that instance, I usually give myself 10 seconds. And so it’s like, or I try to like, I have to just process stuff. And again, this isn’t work for maybe everyone, everyone’s a little bit different, but this has worked for me as I need to process stuff and get it out of my system versus like letting it stew. Because when I had Dr. Rick Sessinghouse, Colin Moore, I was coach on, he was talking about that. He’s like, I’m never going to see someone you know, that I’m working with, they spray it in, you know, a house or a pool and they’re out of balance. I’m never going to tell them like, forget about it. Like that’s not how some of us are wired. Like some of us absolutely can. Like if you’re DJ, he’d be like, Oh, hit it in the pool, you know, like, but that’s not how a lot of us are. And so he’s like, I want you to process it neutrally and not personalize it. And so I really take that. So if you played with me, you might hear a thing or two, but it’s never, I am a terrible driver. I suck. I, you know, I can, it’d be like, wow, that shot went so far left of where I thought. what happened there? And so it’s like almost giving myself just a little bit of like, it out of our system so that way we don’t go into Red Hulk out there. So I think that helps a lot. But yeah, you can do the 10 step rule. The gloves also a great psychological anchor in there. So I won’t take the glove off sometimes until I’ve processed it. But I do try to really contain the ups and downs around the greens. Cause you just don’t have the time to bounce back, especially if you hit a bad bunker shot and now you have another bunker shot because you hit it thick or it hit the lip and now it came right back to you. So on certain instances, I’m very much cognizant of like, let’s kind of curb this a little bit. Again, full swings, you have time, especially if you’re walking. Time is going to help you process it. But if you have to, know, a putting is another good one. You have a 35 footer, you’re the first to putt and you leave it five feet short and everyone else is in there tight already. You might have to putt again. If you’ve beaten yourself up. you only have 30 feet to get over it. it does kind of come down to situations as well.
Josh Nichols
Mm. I like the processing it neutrally, kind of making it more making it less personal, less you’re not attacking yourself. You’re you’re not attacking anything. You’re just noting what happened, but also you’re not you’re not pretending it didn’t happen, right? You’re you’re acknowledging. that that’s that’s a theme that we’ve got going here is kind of acknowledging the existence of anger in general.
Michael Leonard
Exactly.
Josh Nichols
But all acknowledging what happened with the golf shot, acknowledging emotions, acknowledging fears. so yeah, I I love the kind of the an acronym that I’ve that I’ve heard before is rain, R A I N, recognize, accept, investigate now. And the the process of okay, you snap hook one out, you recognize what the shot did. You accept it as as for what it is. You see it neutrally, right? You don’t you don’t personalize it, you say, okay, that shot did that. And then investigate. Like you said, okay, why did that happen? What what do I think caused that shot? Is it something I can adapt to? Is it something okay, I got away from my swing field a little bit, okay, I wasn’t committed to my to my shot. And then you come back to now, hopefully not having to re-tee, hope but you know, proceeding up to your next shot and that processing is counter to a lot of the kind of normal advice of like be even keeled, act like it didn’t happen, everything’s good, you need to be positive all the time, you need to be happy. If you’re not, you’re doing something wrong. And that’s that flies in the face of like, no, tournament golf is hard. It’s uncomfortable. Be uncomfortable. Be okay being uncomfortable. It’s good for you. So yeah, that’s awesome.
Something that I’ve been struggling with lately is I I keep swinging scared in tournaments. Like I’ve I’ll I’ve I’ve had a one day qualifier recently and in fact I I haven’t qualified for anything in three or four years. Like I I’ve I played these one day qualifiers of like our state midam, US mid am, state am, who knows what. And I haven’t made it through. I keep shooting that kind of like seventy five, seventy six, seventy seven number. I keep swinging scared. What how how would you help me through this? Cause it’s it’s genuinely like I get through thirteen or fourteen holes and I realize I’ve just been so tight and scared this whole time. How how would you help me through this?
Michael Leonard
Well, it’s good awareness right there is when is it happening? Is it early in the round? Because you want to get off to a good start? Is it middle of the round because you’re playing good or is it end of the round because you are playing good and you’re seeing yourself make that cut? So I think that that’s kind of the first step. But to me, you said you’re kind of looking back on 1314. So it sounds like the beginning part is the scary part.
Josh Nichols
Mm. Mm-hmm. Yes. It is. Yeah. Yeah. It’s the it’s the beginning of I I mean it’s you know, first T jitters sorta want to get off to a good start, but yeah, it’s it’s like starts with this fear of hitting bad shots and I end up hitting bad shots because of my fear.
Michael Leonard
Is it a specific shot? Is it driver? Is it wedges? Is it putter?
Josh Nichols
It it tends to be T shots and tentative putts. Yeah.
Michael Leonard
Okay, so let’s go through each one. T-shots, is it with the driver specifically or a tight hole or?
Josh Nichols
Right. yeah, it’s it’s driver I think it’s driver. I mean I I I don’t hit it very far, so I I hit driver, you know, thirteen or fourteen times around. So it it’s it’s driver fearing a big miss. Yeah.
Michael Leonard
This hesitation already worries me. Do you have a pretty consistent shot shape?
Josh Nichols
Hmm. I s I Yeah, right. I yeah, if I was like, yeah, it cuts every time or yeah, it draws every time. No, I I don’t. So there’s there’s like an inherent doubt of like I kinda don’t know where this ball’s going. So I need to hang on for dear life and and try to steer this ball into the fairway. So I end up hitting this thin heely thing that’s safe ’cause, you know, a thin heel ball rarely like goes out of bounds. It it You know, it goes way shorter, but it’s usually safe. And that’s what I end up doing.
Michael Leonard
Well, I’d say first thing is if you had a gun to your head right now and you had to get one shot shape, what would it be?
Yeah, perfect. Play a fade the rest of your life. I mean, it’s simple. sounds like comically simple. But I’ve had Scott Fossett on the podcast five times, and this always gets brought up. This reel where I asked him what’s the biggest course management mistake most golfers make. It has more than 2 million views across everything. People are in the comments just freaking out. I can hit draws and fades. I’m the best golfer ever. That’s just not true. Because I’ve played 400 plus tournament days and I don’t know if I’ve ever played golf at an elite level with pros and amateurs where they’re hitting fades one hole, draw the next hole. US Open, I mean those guys were hitting like slices. mean like, you know, it doesn’t matter if you play a fade or a draw, find the one that works for you and then just bash that thing in practice until your grip needs to be redone and just pick the same target, do the same thing and just feel so good over it.
Like when Scott was on, he works, think, with Keith Mitchell and he said that Keith plays the same shot. Doesn’t matter if it’s left to right, right to left, wind off the left, wind down, wind into it, you know. He’s just hitting the same shot. And maybe, maybe these guys that are on the tour that you watch on TV, maybe they can do it. But for the most part, I saw everybody in the US Open playing one shot shape. But for us every day, us mere mortals, playing one shot shape to me is so great because you know what it’s gonna do. It doesn’t mean you’re still gonna miss on left and right, of course, but you still, you’re getting up there and you’re knowing what it typically does in practice. But if you’re in practice and you’re hitting both, again, irons you can do a little bit more with, but driver, like I have made that my core principle.
And driving is by far my greatest statistic. And I get up and I can’t wait to hit driver. But it comes from just playing one shot shape. And I just know what I’m gonna do. So mentally, to me, it helps a lot because I know where I need to tee off. I play a draw, I tee up typically center to left center, or left side, depending on where the trouble is. And it makes picking tee shots easier. So I know my target selection is gonna be easier. I know where to tee up on the box in most cases. I know my miss. And then also I’m not getting technical. If you asked me to hit a fade right now, I’d have to think about it. And the more we’re thinking over the ball, the more likely you are to try and guide it and be like, this isn’t normal one. So it takes some trust to like go against, you know, this traditional wisdom or tiger’s damn nine shot drill that ruined it for us. I think it’s good for irons and club face control. But if you just make driver your friend and you hit that one shot, I think that helps so much mentally.
People don’t think about it from a mental place. People think about it from a path and club face, and that’s way over my head. I’m thinking about it from a mental performance coaching standpoint. I just want you to walk up to the tee shot and know, hey, this is my shot. This is what I’m going to do. I want someone to play with you and be like, God, it’s almost boring how consistent he is off. It doesn’t mean you’re not going to over slice it or you hit some poles and they end up back in, but that’s, I’d say the first thing is in practice, make that just your go-to. Cause if you’re it 13, 14 times, and even if you didn’t hit it short, I’d still want you to hit it most of the time, right? So I think to me that starts there and then it also then kind of feeds into your mental process. So when you’re on that T-box, you know, I’m playing my fade, like it’s just gonna be there. And I think that would help a ton just from a not overthinking it and worrying about whatever your swing thought or feel might be for going against that shot shape.
Josh Nichols
Yes. That that is absolutely a something I get into and I’m curious if you do this too. Doesn’t sound like you do, but there’s always like I I have a I have a struggle of here’s the shot shape I’m hitting today, but I know I play my best historically across my golf career when I am hitting a draw. Right now, if you gun to my head. asked me to hit a shot shape, I’m like, no, I’m gonna hit a cut. But my best golf that I play when it feels the best is a draw. So I spend I I I spend this whole round with all this mental energy of like, here’s what I do versus what I wanna do. And you’re you’re you would push me to set aside what I wanna do and play what I am doing.
Michael Leonard
I would say leave the past in the past. And I have a unique experience on this because I played a cut for, I don’t know, as long as I can remember, let’s say, let’s call it 20 years. And then all of sudden in the 2024 off season, started mixed up the gym routine a little bit. I don’t know, getting into my late thirties, all of a sudden this draw just came out of nowhere. I didn’t try to do it. I didn’t work on any swing changes. I didn’t do anything that I anticipated. All of a sudden it’s there, but I’m playing for a fade still. I’m, you know, putting these nasty pull draws. But I’m like, what is going on? So finally one day I’m like, let’s just, let’s just try it. Like, let’s just try it. Yes. Some of my best rounds ever were with that fade, but the draws there, I don’t know, body change, swing change, you know, whatever it is, we’re getting older, right? Like whatever happened in that off season. And now I just play it, play the draw. And if, if you asked me to, like, I’ve had so many mid to high 60 rounds this year and none of them came from playing both shot shapes, especially off the tee. But I honestly would say less than 1 percent of all shots or ever going against it. I don’t even know if I really could hit a slice right now. And again, that’s just because when I am in practice, I’m just working on it, getting that like stock shot. That just leads to so much more consistency, but it’s like leave the best rounds, like remember your great rounds. I’m a big fan of like, you know, thinking about them, talking about them. Like you play with a buddy and you guys both, you know, made an eagle on one hole, like relive those good memories, but it didn’t mean just cause the shot shape was there. And I think your swing and body just change over time.
So I would love you just to go out and block practice the hell out of that fade and just get so comfortable with it and make sure the club itself is set up for that fade. And then if you do need to draw for some weird reason, you know, like Scott always says, go back to a mini driver or three wood, cause you can move the ball around a little bit and change the path up. then for the most part, I still don’t even think you need to. And I feel like that would help a lot off the tee. And then with putting, let’s talk about that. Cause I think that’s also, that’s also fun. Putting in tournaments is it’s a night and day, right? So do you tend to like you know, you cozying it up? Is that kind of the feel?
Josh Nichols
Yeah, it’s a it’s a fear of yamming it by and having a four footer coming back. I cozy it up and and end up leaving a lot short.
Michael Leonard
This is, you track your stats too? Okay, good, because I was gonna say, I actually had a Korn Ferry player on the show earlier this year and he is like all things strokes gained. And I was like, all right, well, I got a plus five goal and a whole playlist on my channel. like, I wanna do a lesson with you where you just review my stats and tell me what I’m apparently not seeing. Because you’ve played in US Open, you’ve won on the Korn Ferry Tour, like tell me what I need to do. And he looked at my putting and he’s like, do you leave 70 percent of your 30 footers, 30 plus footers short. And I’m like, man, I guess if that’s what the numbers say. And he’s like, we gotta get that closer to 50-50. And so that simple thing of tracking your stats, knowing, do you miss short or long? Now I’ve had, as soon as he said that, I just started to just say, hey, let’s get this there, especially in tournaments. Like, let’s give it a little bit more. And one thing I also got from a different lesson that I did, I’ve had six different lessons in different modalities. Only one about the swing this year. But another one was just look, and he said it as well, when you’re doing these long putts, look past the hole and on the high side. Don’t look at the hole. So if you’re seeing a 35 footer, look at something at 40 feet or 38 feet, something just past it and on the high side. So it’s a gentle reminder to get it there a little bit more often. Again, we don’t need to say never up, never in, we got it there. That’s a terrible philosophy, right? Because then the hole shrinks. But if you look a little bit long and high, you’re gonna get more putts there and you’re gonna miss on the high side, which then gives you a closer next putt. So just from a visual standpoint, that can help out a lot because typically when we have adrenaline and anxiety, we leave putts short. And so that also just can help out a little bit with that. So tournaments again, tend to yield that higher stress. So for me, I’d just be looking a little bit long and high and I think you’re gonna get more there and a couple might even drop.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, I I definitely don’t do that. I I’m so much more man, it’s crazy. And I it sounds like you you’ve experienced this a fair bit yourself of like we we sit here and think about this stuff all the time. We talk about this stuff, write about this stuff, think about this stuff all the time. And I get into a tournament and I’m I’m like a a ball of anxiety and fear of of like what? And I kind of had this I had this realization. I I love the I love the kind of mental shift and str strategic and statistical shift. I also had this mental realization in that round that I’m referring to where I got to whole thirteen or fourteen and I’m like, why am I playing so scared? I realized I can keep doing these one day qualifiers and keep playing scared and keep shooting 77 and keep not qualifying. Like I can I can keep doing that. Or I could actually let it go and lean in and actually put myself out there and try and get the ball to the hole and put a committed swing on it. And worst case scenario, I shoot the same score and don’t qualify. But I actually give myself a chance to qualify, to actually hit good shots and make committed swings and actually roll the ball in instead of leaving it short and having a bunch of tap-ins. That was a mental shift for me. So I wonder, I wanna I wanted to bounce this off of you. Do you feel like that kind of freedom, that kind of letting it rip and leaning in, do you do you feel like that’s a choice that you can just simply at any given moment you can just say, you know what? I’m tired of playing scared. I’m I’m gonna free up. Or does it or does it have to be like a deeper foundational, gotta work on yourself, go to therapy? Like I don’t know. How do you think of that? What do you think of my idea?
Michael Leonard
I think that you are probably not using your mind to your advantage as much as you could. again, this is a wake up I got from one of my coaches and she’s like, you’re a very, very talented golfer, but you’re not really giving your brain the instructions of what you want. You’re thinking about like, let’s just guide it up there. Let’s just hit this fairway. Like. I want to hit a 280 yard fade off the left tree that ends up right there. I want to hit this 35 foot putt that starts a cup out and goes in at five to six. And I’m going to pick my spot two and a half feet long at that shadow. Like that’s so much more specific than hit it in a fairway. Let’s hit a good putt. Like that sounds good, but no, you don’t need to. you know, go in and listen to, you know, meditations all day and do a deep dive. Like this is simply learning to use your brain and you’re obviously the definition of wicked smart. Sometimes knowing all this stuff is one thing, but then we have to apply it, right? And again, we’re human beings just because we know this stuff and talk to all these people doesn’t mean it just comes naturally. Like anything like this is gonna be outside our comfort zone. It’s gonna be a little different and you’re gonna get some resistance from your brain. So understand that, like say, hey, we’re safe. It’s okay. We’re gonna change up strategy because clearly what we’ve been doing isn’t working. So let’s try something new. But I think giving yourself more specific instructions and then being okay if it doesn’t work out. Like I love when I commit to a shot and even if it doesn’t work out. I can at least be like, I didn’t half ass it. Like full, full ass that decision, right? Cause there’s nothing worse than being like, well, of course I hit a bad shot. I was in between a fade or a draw or I thought three would and it was driver. And so then you’re beating yourself up. You’re never going to make a committed swing on it. When in reality it’s like, I’d rather say like if you’re standing over a putt and you’re like, I can’t tell if this thing’s left or right. Just pick one and you know, whatever one came to you first and hit it, you’re probably going to give it a better chance versus guiding it up there. And then you’re beating yourself up. So I love to fail forward. knowing I at least gave it my all. I could sleep at night, but if I’m on the 18th hole of a tournament and I just didn’t really commit, then it’s annoying because again, your brain is so powerful and you’ve trained yourself so good in practice and you’ve played at high level events so you know what to do, but sometimes we forget this thing is a superpower if we know how to use it and actually give it clear instructions.
Josh Nichols
Mm. I love that. I I I absolutely do what you’re describing. I’m I’m thinking more and I th I think it’s exposure to a lot of the normal I don’t know, s you know, data and stats sort of thinking of like it’s okay, you know, a two putt from thirty feet is good or or whatever and tap ins are great and you don’t you know, you need to you don’t wanna give it a run, you need never up, never in, like you whatever. And and that that doesn’t apply on T shots, right? You want to like let it rip with T shots and get it down there. But I do I think it’s it’s almost like my knowledge of of various things has led to just overthinking and second guessing when where do you want this ball to go? Like what do you want to do with this shot? Give yourself clear instructions. Like you have to you have to picture what you wanna do or you’re just l totally leaving it up to chance and you can’t you can’t make a full ass committed swing if you never came to some sort of decision of what you even wanted to do, right? So that’s that’s interesting.
Michael Leonard
1000 percent and I fell in the same bucket, right? Like I know all these stats are all in my books and shows and Instagram, so they’re always top of mind. I know most people aren’t to that level like we are, but it’s like I say knowing these expectations and stats is key to manage your expectations, because. If you’re over every eight footer and you beat yourself up because they don’t go in, it’s like, well, you’re only going to make half those if you’re on the PGA tour. So expect numbers are good and expectations are great. But at the same time, give your mind that clarity. Right. Dr. Bob Rattell talks about this all the time, gives it the green light mentality. Every every pot is a green light pot. Even if it’s a 52 footer over a ridge, you’re still trying to make it doesn’t mean you’re going to make a lot of those. But you’re at least giving your mind that clarity and that specificity that it craves. But if you just give it, you know, vague goals equal vague results, right, give it very, very clear instructions.
Windham and his caddy did a great job right there like mic’d up all day yesterday and you could hear them. We’re gonna hit it off that we’re gonna go right at the tower left side of the tower or it’s gonna you know be this this club at this specific wind is here like they’re giving their mind all the details and the data they’re kind of talking it out and even if you don’t have a caddy you can do this with yourself. I like to actually verbalize I do all that by myself people probably think I’m talking out loud but that’s totally fine I don’t I’m not there to impress people with you know a version of me that doesn’t help me play my basketball so for me When I’m playing my best, I like to talk out every shot. I’ll be like, hey, let’s, you know, it’s a 16 feet uphill left to right. You don’t have to do it outside, you know, outside of yourself. You could do it internally if you’re more introverted, but it’s all about giving your brain that specific instructions.
Josh Nichols
Mm. I mean, I love that. So to to get from where you are to where you want to be. your your next, you know, year w w what are you focusing on most? Like what’s what’s most important to get you from plus two to plus five? Like what do you what do you gotta do to change?
Michael Leonard
Yeah, I didn’t realize how hard of a goal this was when I, when I set this out. feel like I’ve always floated the idea and then I actually realized like how challenging it is, but that’s what’s so cool about a stretch goal like this. Cause the goal isn’t, I don’t really care if I become, if I see a plus five on a card, that’s not the goal. The goal is to be like, this guy’s always in, in it like, or this guy can shoot 62 or this guy is just always top of Arizona golf or he qualifies for pro events or am like, that’s the whole goal of it. Right. So it isn’t. the goal isn’t often the goal. It’s who you become in that process. So for me, it is just religiously tracking stats, learning from weaknesses, and then focusing the practice on that. for me specifically right now, it is continuing to increase driving distance. I’ve added five miles an hour club at speed this year, and that’s huge. So it went from 110 to 115, can stretch it to 117, 118 when I’m letting it eat. And that’s been huge. I mean, that’s 10 yards, but that’s an extra club now, right? 10 plus yards. And it’s just given me you know, that two night, if it’s a two 80 carry over a bunker, I’m like, no problem. Like let’s go. And I have to hit it really bad to go over that or to not get over that. So it gives me a lot more freedom. So speed training two times a week, unless I have a multi-day tournament, I do that religiously. That’s huge because distance is scoring potential. So a lot of that just got all new refitted equipment. That’s going to be big. Every club is, is always been fit for me, but the irons were about three and a half years old and technology changed a bit, got some new wedge shafts. So all 14 clubs are like, custom fit for me like as much as possible like everything so that’s And then it’s just again reviewing the stats every single every single couple of weeks, you know I don’t do it after I log stats after everyone but I don’t just like kind of take a look at them, but it’s just spotting trends and it’s just been a lot of a lot of quote-unquote boring practice, you know, and but it’s I’m I’m falling more in love with it after 28 years than I thought I ever would. I I practice six, seven days a week sometimes, and it’s it’s fun. It’s becoming like who I am. And I feel a little empty when I’m not doing it. Cause it’s like, it’s boring. know most people aren’t doing this, but that’s why that’s how you keep getting ahead. so, you know, metronome drills and start line drills and, you know, turning your phone off and, and making, you know, go through pressure and adding more types of scenario type based practice, the mental side of it. So it’s a full on front that I’m attacking and it’s just been really addicting because at the beginning there went the wrong way. started getting to the plus ones and now, know, and it’s going to do that. only playing in mostly tournaments has been a little more challenging. So I’d like to play a little bit more front tees and middle tees and, know, stuff like that, just to kind of get comfortable continually going low. But, yeah, I think it’s just kind of always assessing the game and not being afraid to recruit help. Like I said, I’ve had a wedge lesson, a speed training lesson, mental lesson, stat lesson. You know, I love asking people for help. once again, I think ego ruins so many golf They think they know everything about everything and there’s so many smart people out there that want to help you achieve your goals But you got to ask them you got to learn from them and that could be free It could be listening to their podcast reading their book. It could be hiring for a lesson But there’s so many great resources out there But you got to know what you struggle with and then find that mentor to help you out
Josh Nichols
Dude, that’s awesome. Michael, you’re killing it, man. You’re you’re killing it with your books, you’re killing it with your own golf game, you’re killing it with every answer I I that you give me to all my questions. Awesome, man. what where what do you want to promote? You you have so much stuff always going on and all the content that you put out is isn’t is a factory, it seems like. But where would you point someone? What like what what matters to you most right now?
Michael Leonard
Thank yeah, no, it’s I appreciate it, man. It’s it’s it feels like too long. We got it. We got to not wait two and a half years till next time. So no, it’s been it’s been a ton of fun. I’d say honestly, the easiest place now is Wicked Smart Golf Academy. I’ve taken all the books, all the practice plans, everything in there. And so it’s a monthly or annual membership you can get. And there’s all kinds of resources in there. So you basically go through welcome module, get accustomed to how the training works, understanding statistics of whether you’re trying to break 90, break 80. Then you go through a pre shot like a pro like master class I have. And then you pick a path whether you’re trying to break 90 break 80 get into tournament golf And it’s all video lessons practice plans everything’s kind of guiding you in there I know a lot of people if you don’t like to read I think that’s probably the easiest one to do and then of course if you’re just kind of figuring out about Wicked Smart Golf and don’t really understand what it’s about I think the books on Amazon or audible or a great starting point, but yeah That’s kind of and then Wicked Smart Golf on you know all the socials out there But I just try to share what I’m learning share what I’m learning from guests and simplify the game as much as possible
Josh Nichols
Michael. Thank you, man. This has been a pleasure.
Michael Leonard
Absolutely. Thanks again.
