Podcast Transcript
Josh Nichols
One of the things we were going to talk about, Matt, was doing the movement snacks in the natural transitions between stuff. I don’t know why — what have you seen about people who struggle even to do the smallest little thing? I forget what today’s workout is, which is not great. It’s already 3 PM and I don’t even know what today’s movement snack is supposed to be. But one of the days in our weekly thing is pushups. So it’s like, do as many pushups as you can and do a set, and then at some other point do another set, and then at some other point do another set. So there’s not even a number — it’s do as many as you can.
I’m just so in the headspace of I’ve got to go do that next thing, I’ve got to go do that next thing. I can’t stop or I get off track. What are your thoughts on that?
Matt Myers
Yeah, we’ve talked about it a little bit. So first off, framing this — movement snacks is a strategy that we use to break up movement throughout the day or throughout the week. One of the things that’s really cool about strength training is that a lot of people think it has to look a certain way in order for it to count or be effective. But as long as you hold the volume and intensity the same — meaning if you’re doing the same amount of work and challenging yourself within each of those sets the same as you would in a dedicated workout space — the results are the same. What really matters is the amount and how hard it is. If you get those two factors dialed in, it doesn’t really matter how you break it up.
We’ve found a variety of strategies. Some people really like having that dedicated time where they can step away, clear their headspace, go to the gym. Other people are kind of running around in a stressed out state, and it always feels like mentally they’re not doing enough. I don’t know if you’ve ever had that thought, Josh.
And thinking that they’re not doing enough — if we can build some momentum… you actually said this really well even just a couple weeks ago. This is an example of how this can swing for you based on where you’re feeling in the day and in the moment. A couple weeks ago, you had been on a streak of hitting these like three weeks in a row and you were like —
Josh Nichols
Don’t use my words against me. Yeah.
Matt Myers
Surprise surprise, starting small and casting votes for myself, I feel great. And now we hit a little wall where your schedule got hectic — you were traveling, then the Masters, then busy stuff — and now you feel like you’re not casting votes for yourself and you’re like, man, I’m failing at this again. And really we just need to reframe that thought, get you back in doing something, get a win right now. Like literally, we could pause this podcast and do a set of pushups together. Let’s go. I will do it. We will bro out. I’m going down too. We’re going down. All right.
Josh Nichols
I’m doing it. I’m doing it. I’m doing it. I’m doing some push-ups. I’m taking my headphones out.
Matt Myers
167, 168. You can’t hear me.
Josh Nichols
I must have done way more than you because I took longer. I did 17.
Matt Myers
I was back here — I actually did about 17 too. I was counting like 169, 170, but I don’t think you could hear me. And I was like, I’m not near the microphone anyway. But do you immediately feel better a little bit? It’s like a state change. You immediately feel different. I was over here cranking under my computer before this call, being like, I gotta get this thing done, I’m trying to solve this. Right before I hopped on the call I literally saw my face in the preview window and I was just like, furrowed brow, thinking deeply. I did a set of pushups, immediately feel better, come back in. So I think we just got to keep reminding ourselves of that.
Josh Nichols
Yeah. The casting votes thing is huge because it could be completely unrelated to how my body is physically getting stronger, how it translates to my golf game, stamina on the golf course, being able to hit swing positions and all that. It could be completely unrelated. And if the only thing that I get out of it is I believe in myself a little bit more — like, that’s way more than just nothing.
Matt Myers
Sure. I am the type of person that takes time to physically work out.
Josh Nichols
Yes. Right. I am that type of person. That’s why movement snacks is so cool. It’s the smallest little vote. And like you said, it doesn’t have to — I’m like trying to catch my breath. That’s how bad I’ve been. So it’s so cool because —
Matt Myers
Hey, you got the intensity part in. You got the challenge yourself part in.
Josh Nichols
I think last time we talked about — how small can you make what you’re asking yourself to do, to where you’re like, that’s stupid, of course I can do that. And I know that, and I still — I see on the Nerd Fitness app, daily movement snack, pushups. And I’m like, it’s so small and simple, not even asking that much. And I still… So there’s almost a — no matter what it is, there’s still a barrier to get across.
Matt Myers
Yeah. Initiation energy. And we see this too within neurodivergence as well — people have different activation costs of trying to get into a task or into something. There’s a couple of things here. The first is we try to lower the barrier. We try to make it smaller so there’s less feeling or pressure of like, if I don’t have 45 minutes, it doesn’t count. That is a valuable tactic, but it can come back to bite people. This is why every situation is different — if it’s too small, then you’re like, well, it doesn’t really do anything. So you’re trying to find that sweet spot.
Josh Nichols
And it doesn’t motivate, right? Like why even do that? I’m just going to sit at my desk. That two minutes is not worth it. So why even take the two minutes? And there’s also — it’s so small that it doesn’t even feel like I’m casting that big of a vote. That’s kind of related to it doesn’t even feel worth it, so why even do it?
Matt Myers
Yeah. My thing with that — and this is a lot of coaching, right? Because it’s not just writing the plan, it’s helping people execute the plan and figure out what’s going to actually fit in their crazy schedule and how do we get them to do it. Looking back at our conversations over the last two years, this process for us has evolved over time. But every few months there’s usually something where we’re like, yeah, something sticky came up, schedule changed, something else changed, let’s talk through this concept, let’s figure it out. And then you keep going. So this is the thing — you’re in a little bit of a lull this week, but I know in a week and a half you’re gonna be turning the corner back at it, and that’s really the key. Anyway, where was I going with this? Yeah, the vote for casting being so small.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, it’s not even worth it. Yeah.
Matt Myers
Yeah, reframes for me are like, cool, we can do more — start with this. You can always start and do the two minutes and then I’m not telling you you can’t do 10 minutes when it feels good. Start and do the two minutes. I think another thing that is helpful for — I would say people like us, which, we’re literally on a show called The Mental Golf Show. You might care about your mindset and how you think about things. I know that you can be quite introspective about the process. And we nerd out on that together. But I think sometimes we just gotta do the thing, where we just saw each other and we’re like, what are we doing? We’re taking this too seriously.
Or sending the GIF of, you know, like Predator — the hands clasping in Predator — and just being like, go do it. Let’s just go do it. It doesn’t always have to be so serious. So I think figuring out as a coach, that’s what’s fun for me — figuring out what buttons do I need to push to try to help. Is it like, hey, let’s have a serious conversation about this right now, let’s think about this from a strategy standpoint? Or is it like, yeah man, I get it, how about we go do a set of pushups right now? Like, why don’t we just do that and share some funny memes after?
Josh Nichols
Right. Yeah. That is — it’s kind of what I see for those who listen to this and also listen to Chasing Scratch, which those Venn diagrams heavily overlap. And it’s what you see with them where the fact that they have a podcast makes improvement difficult. We actually just had a cool conversation earlier — we were doing some recording earlier where the thing that makes a good podcast, the thing that makes a good Mental Golf Show episode, is often counter to actually what leads to getting things done and improving. The exciting, shiny object, revelatory, dramatic, changing thing makes a really good episode of a podcast. But the slow, boring thing that you should probably be doing daily makes maybe a less good Mental Golf Show episode.
Overthinking — you could call it the Overthinking Golf Show, right? Because that’s my job, to like think through things. I almost feel like a philosopher sometimes. So when I send you a super long message about why this is so hard, and it takes me four minutes to do the message, that could have been two sets of pushups. Easily. So there’s a lot of irony there.
Matt Myers
Yeah. Well what I would say is the other thing that we have found multiple times is something that I think you’re gonna struggle with — and all of us struggle with this at some point — is that in general, especially for people in this self-improvement sphere who care about getting better, you are rarely satisfied with your own efforts.
Josh Nichols
Never enough. Yeah.
Matt Myers
Right. Never enough. Like, I could always optimize more, I could always be doing more. We had that show last year where we were like, how many times do you think you worked out? It was like hundreds. And you’re like, I can’t even perceive that for myself. I almost need someone else to be like, so… I think there’s some of that too. And ultimately this is why I love coaching, right? Because if all you needed was a plan and I just said, Josh, here’s the plan — my job is not only boring, it is replaceable very easily by spreadsheets and AI and everything else.
The part of this that is interesting to me is that human behavior is complex and we’re not robots. We create meaningful relationships when we’re in coaching partnerships that can change both people in the best worlds, right? You challenge me to think about things differently, explain things well, be there in the moment with you and figure out what you need. And then hopefully I’m able to help you continue to put one foot in front of the other in a way that’s overall positive for you. That’s where the magic happens. That’s the cool part.
Josh Nichols
Yes. And you said this one time when we were messaging back and forth — when I should have been doing pushups — about AI. AI can do it for you. There’s a difference between doing it for you and doing it with you. That’s something AI just cannot do.
I know AI has taken over in so many people’s lives. I’m sure the majority of people even listening to this use ChatGPT in some way to optimize or build a workout plan. But what we just did there — let’s just go do some pushups — I could be sitting and chatting up ChatGPT and it says, why don’t you just get down and do some pushups right now? And I’m just like, who are you? You’re just text on a screen. You’re not doing this with me. You literally did this with me. AI is not getting down and doing pushups with me. And when I tell it that I did do it or whatever, it’s just hollow. There’s nothing there doing it with me. And that’s where you’re just different.
Matt Myers
Yeah. And again, I’m not anti-AI in any way. It’s a tool. It’s a tool that has benefits and weaknesses and it’s getting better all the time, which is great, and I hope it makes information more accessible to people.
I think there is a group of people that the more they get plugged into all this stuff, the more they’re gonna value the human relationship and the messiness part of it and the communication back and forth. And I still think there’s magic in that. Not gonna be for everyone all the time, but for people that struggle to stick with something consistently — or feel like they’ve been trying to get in shape every year for the last 20 years — you’ve probably tried programs before. You’ve probably had stuff that’s closely enough to what even AI could give you now. You’ve had tools at your fingertips. This is just another shiny tool that you’re gonna chase. And what we need to do is figure out how we change the behavior. And I think that is more easily done, right now at least, with another human who’s getting to know you and care about you and that you know cares back. Which I believe is something you said in that conversation — you’re like, you’ll never convince me that the AI chatbot actually cares. But it can still be useful, there’s just an element that’s missing there for sure.
Josh Nichols
Yes. Yeah. Something you talk about all the time is being intentional — knowing, going into a situation with your eyes open. You at least know, okay, there is a use for this thing. I’m not under any illusion that it cares or that it wants me to do well or whatever. But because I’m using this tool with open eyes, I know what it can be good for and I know where it comes up short.
I’ve got players that I work with that use an AI chatbot for something that I could have charged them for or done for them, and they did it and it was faster and it’s effective. It’s a tool they can use to get things done. But when it comes to — I want to talk to somebody, I want a guy who has played golf before, a guy who has been successful coaching people for years and knows what he’s doing, has done it, messed up, failed, done well, succeeded — that can’t be replaced.
But you were talking about reframes. One of the things that has been a big problem for me — I think this was your terminology — is that false dichotomy of thinking that either I’m going to be productive or I’m going to take time to work out, and almost as if those are at odds with each other. What is wrong with that mentality?
Matt Myers
Yeah. It’s just too black and white. For you specifically, the thing that I pushed back on — I noticed you having that pattern where you’re like, I can’t step away, I can’t take five minutes for myself to do this, there’s too much to do, there’s too many important things on the list. And we want to be honest about acknowledging that there is a lot going on. I’m not trying to say just suck it up, Josh — that’s not the idea. But you were setting up this thing where it’s like, either I’m productive or I’m being selfish and focusing on my own health, and now I’m no longer productive.
There is a point where the investment — those 15 minutes you step away and work on your health, like we just did — the state changes, your mentality changes, you feel better. I know in those days when I’m stuck in productivity mode, I end up irritable, frustrated, feeling like I still could have done more even though I never took a break, barely ate anything, barely did anything. I feel like crap. And the days when I feel like I got so much good stuff done are the days where I did take a little bit of time for myself.
I’m not telling you to go do a three hour workout and sit in a circle with candles lit humming Kumbaya for two hours. But 15 minutes of a workout in the middle of a very intense, mentally taxing day is not actually hurting you or slowing you down. If anything, you’re gonna get a boost from that — where you’re at least as productive as you would have been without those 15 minutes, if not more. And you’re probably gonna end the day feeling better anyway. So that was what I was challenging you on.
Josh Nichols
Yeah. I forget where I heard this, but someone was kind of poking fun at the optimizing optimizer bros who do the two or three hour morning routine. And they said they spend all day getting ready for the next day. Every day they’re spending all day getting ready for the next day.
Matt Myers
That’s so good.
Josh Nichols
Right. What are you actually doing here? You’re not making yourself better in order to be productive — you’re making yourself better in order to keep doing the same… whatever. But the idea is, I’m never going to be satisfied with how much I get done in a day. There’s always more to do, there’s always more emails to answer. So if no matter what I’m not going to be able to do everything, I might as well take 15 minutes to also work out so that I feel better. So that when I do get to the end of the day and I know I could have done more, I at least feel better saying that. It’s like golf in that sense.
Matt Myers
Yeah. Disease of optimization, disease of productivity. And it’s also true — we always think that if we get optimization dialed in… one of my former clients, his name’s Oliver Berkman, he actually wrote a book about this. 4,000 Weeks. Yeah, for two and a half years while he was writing that book. He knew Steve and they saw each other at an author gig and he was like, I need help with fitness. So yeah, he was awesome. But he has a lot of stuff around the disease of productivity and stuff.
And I see it even happening with AI with people that I work with, right? You think that AI is going to save you all this time — all you do is fill the time immediately with, okay, I can do more now, so now I expect more of myself and I should be doing more, more, more, more. It just keeps going up. Email was gonna make things so much faster and more convenient — I remember a story about that back in the day — and instead what email did was make you feel like you needed to be on all the time. It wasn’t faster or more convenient. You were just on all the time. And I find that with work, shutting down at the end of the day sometimes is hard. Being present with the family — I can still be like, I’m still thinking about the next project I could be doing for work, the webpage I need to design, the next email I’m gonna write. So yeah, we definitely got into the philosophical, but I think it’s true.
And I think we can challenge people out there — if you feel like you’re stuck in that state where you’re constantly feeling like you need to push more and do more, there’s definitely a time and place for that, but also make sure that you’re putting your oxygen mask on first. You’re taking care of yourself, doing those basics. You don’t need to turn it into wake up at 4 AM, do my cold plunge, and then sing to my vegetable garden so that they grow with more nutrients afterwards. We don’t need to go that far. The basics go a long way. 15 to 30 minutes of activity a day. Getting good sleep at night. Protein, fiber, fruits and veggies at meals.
If we could just get people to do these things — and everyone else wants to focus on optimizations of every other little thing — I care about getting that stuff done. If I can get you to do the 15 to 30 minutes of workout, improve your nutrition some, get some sleep, crack a smile, laugh and not take things so seriously all the time — those are the foundations of things going well. And it’s weird that my job is based around helping people do those things. It’s kind of a result of modern society in some ways, like I have to come back to some of those basics.
Josh Nichols
Yeah. Your role for people is kind of — we float off in our hot air balloon on all these pie in the sky things and your job is to keep us grounded and say, listen, you’re over-complicating this, you’re overthinking it. It’s actually way simpler than you are making it. And because it’s way simpler, it’s going to be way easier to do for longer, stay consistent with, and cast votes for yourself.
Matt Myers
Yeah. Nice job bringing it all back full circle, bro, after that roundabout.
Josh Nichols
Yeah. So with that kind of simplicity — there are so many things we could talk about, but I like this as just kind of a check-in. We have that free resource, the MVP golf workout. I hope people will go download that, because it’s something you can just have. But what is a really simple routine — maybe it’s like a pre-round warmup, or just the basics for a golfer to stay strong and have better stamina. What would be the 20% of things that you could do that gets you 80% of the results?
Matt Myers
We’ve talked about a few of them. One thing is make sure you warm up before your rounds and your practices. It’s the thing that everyone wants to skip and they just want to rip into it. It depends on your level and where you’re at. Most of the people that I work with I would consider to be amateur golfers who are hobbyists, who love it, who are passionate about it, but have all this other stuff going on.
The tendency for that person is to go to the course, not really warm up, and just start ripping drives off the tee first thing. One of the fundamental principles I want to help people engage with is that any spike in intensity or activity is the place where you are most vulnerable. So if you’re going from sitting at a desk to high intensity, high speed swings of the club, that spike is a giant gap that you are jumping in one go. That can be on a day to day basis — so that’s where the warmup comes in — but it can also be from off season to in season. Like, hey, I haven’t really been playing a lot, I’m going out and doing 18 holes, and my back feels funny and my shoulder hurts. And it’s like, well, the gap was too big.
So I would definitely say one, do a warmup. We have some resources on that — some of the band movements, just some basics. The way I think of warmups is general and then specific. General, you want to just get overall movement in, get your body temperature up, get moving. And then specific, you want to practice the actual golf swing at lower speeds and intensities and then ramp that speed and intensity up so that you’re preparing for the specific thing you’re about to do.
Same thing going into your in season. You don’t necessarily want to go from not playing any rounds to doing 18, 36, however many holes. Do nine holes and then cut it for the day, see how you are. If you’re not getting sore and you feel good, then great. Or ramp up your swing count in your at-home sessions higher and higher going into the season more so that you’re prepared for it, rather than doing it all at once.
Josh Nichols
Right. It’s so hard — and this is right where we are at this point for at least half the country — finally getting out of off season, and this is when you are most itching to play. So you get a nice day and you’re playing 18, like, I’m going to try to play more than 18 and I’m going to skip the pre-round warmup in order to do that. Or I’ve got an hour after work so I’m just going to go straight to the golf course and I start with a tee shot, make a few practice swings, and then boom — straight into a 100 mile an hour driver swing.
This is probably the time where that spike is going to be the biggest because of the itch to get going out of winter. And that’s something I ran into — I went and played like 14 holes and then 18 holes kind of pretty close to each other, and I was super sore. And you held the mirror up and said, okay, well, what have you done in order to be ready for that? Like I just kind of jumped out to the golf course. So since then I have made my at-home practice sessions longer, with more clubs, higher speed swings, higher ball count. And each round has felt a little less taxing on me. And there’s something to be said for the parts of me that are hurting probably need some more strength and mobility, yeah.
Matt Myers
Yeah. And we did some more focused mobility. That’s the other thing — it’s individual per person, but doing more mobility and strength training. That’s also the other part of the 20% that gets you 80% of the results. 20 minutes of strength training, two to three times a week — we could get so much value out of that. It’s all the fundamentals that people know. Squats and lunges and deadlifts and presses and rows and stuff. There’s some sports specific stuff you can do too, but I would build that on top of the foundation. General then specific. That’s it.
A lot of people will immediately go to all the specific stuff, which I think is still great, but I think you’re leaving some room on the table. No matter what sport you’re looking at, you’re doing the general stuff too.
Josh Nichols
Yes. So we’ve got that MVP golf workout that you’re talking about — you could do that three days a week and you’re doing way more than if you’re not doing anything. And yeah, maybe we’ll try to put together a pre-round warmup. I did a few of those exercises and I wasn’t able to do all of them, but they were awesome. There were a couple of things that I can’t believe I don’t do before I go play. It’s kind of like I’m just totally leaving my body up to chance and hoping I don’t hurt myself. And I usually do end up hurting myself. So they were good.
Matt Myers
Yeah. There’s another benefit to those too. There’s this concept — I’ve heard it called zero forms. But the other thing a pre-round warmup does for you, especially if it’s a routine and you know it hits the big movement patterns that you’re gonna be engaging with, is it’s also a check-in with how you’re feeling and what’s stiff, sore, tight, whatever, before you’re swinging the club 100 miles an hour. And if you are doing that check-in routine consistently, you’re gonna be more self-aware. You’re gonna know those days that, hey, I need to be a little careful today, I might actually need to do a little bit more warmup.
The strongest, best athletes I have ever worked with — the thing that defined them was that they would know when it was not the right day to push. They’d be like, hey, I’m doing these barbell cleans, I’m not feeling it, I’ll come back tomorrow. And they would just peace out. And they would come back the next day and be like, I’m good today. Something was off and I could tell. The live to fight another day mindset actually seemed to me to be the thing. Of course they also came back the next day — it’s not that they were done for a week. But that awareness of your readiness state can be improved by having some sort of routine that you’re checking in with yourself every time before you play.
Josh Nichols
Yeah. That’s huge. That’s something I used to be so good at. I was consistent with my warmup — my pre-gym warmup but also my pre-round warmup. So I would know. And the fact that I was consistent put me into a good state more often, so there was less uncertainty. But I was also very clear on when, all right, I’m not going to go that hard, or I probably need to just hit some more balls for my pre-round warmup than normal.
Matt Myers
Yeah, or like, you might have to pivot. And I want to be clear — I’m not trying to hedge my bets, but anything in fitness, people just take it and run with it so far. I want to be clear, I’m not telling you that you need to do an hour long warmup every time. Because that’s what will happen. People will be like, some warmup good, more warmup better. And we see this in the gym too where people are spending 45 minutes warming up to do like their first exercise and you’re like, we needed 10 minutes. Five to 10 minutes was fine. We didn’t need more than that. So again, my role — keep it simple, focus on the basics. It goes a long way.
Josh Nichols
Keep us grounded. Yes. Okay. So we’ve got the free MVP workout — we’ll have a link to that in the show notes. It’s been awesome. The movement snacks — you can do this MVP workout as a movement snack. Today is about one of the things on here, right? You don’t have to do all of it every day. So for those that are struggling to get over that starting inertia, you can make it easier on yourself. I’m definitely gonna go do some more push-ups after this, because that felt nice.
Matt Myers
Let’s do it. Let’s finish — is that how we sign off? We both just disappear and go do some pushups? Alright. Let’s go.
Josh Nichols
Yeah, I’m doing some more push-ups right now. Give me a sec. It’s faster than Matt that time — that’s because I did fewer. Okay, Matt. Thank you. All right. Let’s end the —
Matt Myers
My face is red. That was fun, dude. Thanks so much. This was a check-in. See ya.
